Sep 4, 2024
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You're listening to the Oracle MAVEN podcast, where we bring people
together from the veteran affiliated community to highlight
employees, partners, organizations and those who are continuing the
mission to serve. Welcome to the MAVEN podcast. I'm your host,
Chris Spencer. And in this episode and joined by our co-host David
Cross, senior Vice President Sass, Chief Information Security
Officer within Oracle.
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Here we are, folks. Season three. It's been a while since we've
come together to deliver a new episode, and we're ready to kick off
our new season with new conversation. These newer topics sometimes
bringing back previous guests and maybe we'll go deeper into past
conversations. We hope all of you are well and putting in the work
to be better.
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If not, listen in and maybe we can help change that. We have all we
need to become the person we want to be. So let's remember how to
connect with others with sincerity and genuine intent as we
continue the mission to serve. Thanks for listening. We hope you
enjoy this episode and please remember to check in on your buddies
and family.
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David's contact details are in the podcast description and you can
always find me on LinkedIn.
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All right, so season three, first episode of Season three. We're
coming at you for career oriented conversation, joined here with
David Cross. Many of you already know. He's our MAVEN podcast
co-host and he's got specialization in a particular career field.
So as we were talking about what we should be considering to
discuss in this new season as we roll into summer, but career
choices, you know, this might be the season where many of you are
getting ready to transition, whether out of service or from careers
where being relevant matters and trying to understand what it takes
and what people look for.
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David's going to share some information I'll probe a little bit on,
you know, before you make the decision, what are the
considerations? And we've talked many, many times about this
particular topic or decision making process in previous episodes.
You hear about it a lot in everywhere else. Probably every
self-help book is critical thinking, some sort of element of
emotional intelligence, things that go into how you're going to
decide what you're going to do.
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It starts from, we believe, what do you want to do and the passion
that comes through that. And so, David, it's nice to see again. You
know, Chris, it's great to be back, right? You know, it's kind of
like, you know, I'm we're excited about this next season here. It's
kind of like your favorite TV show, you know, Netflix, right?
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You know, selling Sunset. I know you get really excited every time
there's a new season and kind of like, you know, when they went
down to Orange County, Right. They kind of got to change it up a
bit and talk about that. So, you know, I think this is going to be
a fun season of like we talk about careers, maybe we have some some
outside guests, you know, that also help us in like, you know, how
do we make this transition?
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We want to mix it up and kind of, you know, up it a bit and get
people excited about it. So it's sometimes these seasons take a
little longer than we like, just like Netflix, but we're, you know,
we'll see. We can do better. So if anybody's been paying attention
to every episode, David says, I look forward to these things.
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It's up to you to decide if I'm really a fan of I don't know what
you said. Would you say the sunset selling sunset? You know, I know
you like all the real estate and the cars they drive and, you know,
the Hollywood properties. So yeah, you know, we'll talk about that
another time. Yeah, another time. Yes, it is.
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You know, it it is always interesting. You know, sometimes we take
a little hiatus to, you know, focus on other things, but also, you
know, take priorities as they come. And maybe it's just a another
way of just realizing what else can we do to be more impactful and
how do we consider, you know, reassess and this is the after action
review is like, how were we effective?
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And, you know, are there other things that we should try in order
to make sure that we're keeping up with the things that people will
want to talk about or want to listen to? And so the one thing that
we can never get away from is career choices, because we know, you
know, that's that that's an important area of conversation in any
circle that you're in.
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Excuse me, but it's just a matter of understanding the depth in
which to go into these these things. And so we're talking security,
cyber, career choice. You know, David, I'd like to get into some of
the depth of what it what it means to consider what choice you're
going to make, what career choice you're going to make. But, you
know, let's start with this one.
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What matters most? Is it theory or education or experience? You
know, it's a great question, Kristen. I know this like a big
debate. Like I was at a conference last week and people were you
know, we were talking a little bit about is like, do you have to
have a degree, you know, to be successful in computer science or do
you have to have a degree to be, you know, successful or get into
cybersecurity?
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And the answer is, I'm going to say, no, you don't. However, right.
I think it's really the most important point is there's different
ways to get into things, right? You know, just like getting into
sports, writing notes to some people. Do you have a professional
trainer, some people are. They get their their parents, you know,
you know, kind of guide them.
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Other people, it's natural. But ultimately, it's like, what is the
result you want, Right? You know, saying that if you're a tennis
are running, right, you have to have a set of skills, right? And
you have to be able to demonstrate those skills. Like right now, I
think around the world and certainly we're watching late this
weekend, the Olympic trials.
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Right. You have to have a set of skills. Are you in the Olympics,
are not like, can you take a get a degree and get in the Olympics?
No. You have to demonstrate your skills. So I think that's the
point here. Everybody is like, if you want to get to computer
science, can you write a program? yeah.
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Can you show me that you can write a program? Can you put it on
GitHub and let me see it? Same thing for cybersecurity, right? Can
you pen test? Can you identify a vulnerability? Right. Can you
evaluate a threat? Well, can you show me Right. It just like
diving. Can you dive in the pool, not make a splash?
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Show me. Right. I think it's the best place to start. No, I like
that. And thanks for that. And that that I feel like many who would
be listening would say, Well, that's the scraping the surface. It
sounds like you have very specific examples. And I would assume
then if I'm taking notes, that if if you as an expert or would you
consider yourself an expert in these areas.
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Yeah, there's always debate. Am I an expert or subject matter
expert or am I an influencer to say I'm going to say I have 30
patents in the United States and most almost all of them are
security. So I'm going to say, yeah, I am an expert for today. Buy
that for a dollar selling sunset clip right there.
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You see the reference there. Gotcha. That jokes. All right. So 30
patents in the U.S. You correct. Okay. So I'm going to put a pin in
that one. We'll come back to it. So, you know, off the top of your
head, you were talking about very specific examples of something
that somebody would have to prove to you and show you and say, So
can you help us figure out what if if I were to be someone who is
interested, I have and I'm going to put a pin in this one, too.
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I have a passion for technology and it just so seems to now drive
me towards security because of either the career field seems to be
trending or somebody told me that it's place to a place to go or
what have you. For whatever reason I'm interested in it. What are
some of the things that I would look at that somebody like you who
would, you know, are are you're worth is going to be determined
based off of the things that you're able to demonstrate.
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What are the top things that I would need to focus on to be able to
make sure that I'm aligning beginning my career choice or beginning
the skill development that I can make sure that I'm not veering too
far away from. Sure, I will. I'm going to go back a little bit to
kind of my career and kind of like, how do I truly break into
cybersecurity right now?
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I think that there's a lot of people you hear about, go take this
class or get this certification or this thing's on Coursera and
magically you're a cybersecurity person. In the end, I'm going to
go back is it's about demonstrate something. So I got into
Microsoft. I was in I got I won't do the story of like how I get in
Microsoft, but I got my foot in the door of Microsoft.
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But I wanted to be in security. I wanted to be in Windows Security.
And at the time I was in Microsoft Consulting, just like Oracle
Consulting, right? But I wanted to be in the product group. I
wanted to be in the Windows Security product group. At the time, I
said, Well, David, you know, there's program managers are
hiring.
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Is that how do I be one? They said, well, program managers, they
write white papers, right? They actually speak at conferences to
our comfort customers. So, okay, so then what did I do? So I was
working with customers and I found a need. Right? Because just like
being in like in business, right? You find a need this time it's
going to go way back.
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This is the Windows 94.0. And they also had a thing called Windows
Certificate Server 1.0, an exchange server, and say, How do you
connect a certificate server to the Microsoft Exchange Server and
CMS so you can actually encryption right in in in your your
exchange email deployment. There was no real documentation about
this. So what I did is I worked on with the product group and
others in my free time and I wrote a white paper about it.
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It became the Microsoft whitepaper, like, how do you integrate
certificate server exchange CMS and getting it all to work? And it
became a public white paper, right? There was a need, there was a
demand and people like, bang, this is useful, this is valuable,
this is security. And Mr. Cross, you did it. Another element is
they said, well, they speak at conferences.
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Well, I'm on the clock. I'm in consulting. Right. They don't pay me
to go to a conference like now. So I wrote a paper or an abstract,
things like that. And I went and spoke at Microsoft Tech. Ed And
then I also spoke at the RSA Conference. I took vacation on my own
time because they're not going to pay for me to go do this.
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I took vacation. I got good scores on. There's to say, this is what
I want to do. They said, okay, David, this is nice. But, you know,
that's a one year one hit wonder. Like, just kind of like your
favorite bands you talk about Chris Quinn before this podcast is
Well, I spent time with that. Here we go there.
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So I wrote another white paper right? I ended up writing, you know,
over the course of a year, five white papers in my free time spoke
at two conferences and said, Will you let me in? Right? And I said,
Maybe you're not the best that we thought of, but great. You
showing the passion things. We talk about this package, that
passion, determination, the ability to learn right, and ability to
adapt right, customer focused.
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And they let me in, right? And that was the start of the journey,
right? But coming back to Element is identifying need, right?
Identify gap right. Go right about it. Create an artifact, create a
deliverable. So how do you demonstrate you can do something? You
know, Chris you think about is you know think about kids in school,
right?
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Things like how do you know what they're doing? Can they write a
paper? Can they produce something? Do they have a project that's
the trick here. And once you have, it's very tangible. And I would
say, gosh, we'd let you into our company. You know what a junior
position is like? Yeah, look what I wrote. Look what I can do.
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It's very easy to convince someone that you may be eligible for
that. Got it. There's a ton of good nuggets in there. Thanks for
that. So the need and demand, I mean, that I think probably is a
place to start for some of this is to recognize the need. And
again, I go back to the individual need and the external need.
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Right. So do you need it? Do you want it? Do you need to feel like
you X Right. And that I think, is important. Do you feel like you
need to do this? Do you feel like you want to do this right? And
what's the difference? Right. And I think some of this is circling
around a personal passion because you're talking about using your
free time to do things that are setting you up.
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And I'm oversimplifying it, but it is, in fact, one of those things
to say, if I'm wanting to achieve these things, then I, I need to
consider how far you're willing to go in order to have success
there and some of what you were sharing. Again, you know, cutting
it down to very simple approaches is to say, I want to do this.
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You use phrases like foot in the door. That's common, especially
through veterans or service members getting ready to transition. I
just want to get my foot in the door and I will represent
recruiting. That was advocate on the side hearing from a candidate.
I'm just trying to get a foot in the door. Be careful with that
because it's it's important for you to believe that.
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And that can be something you keep inside your head. But if a
hiring manager hears this from people now, it draws the question
commitment. If it means that I I've given you a chance to get a
foot in the door, don't misunderstand it to be don't misunderstand
that to be something that's going to help you in every case.
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Because now I, I as a hiring manager, I may shy away from that
because now I'm looking at I want you to be here for as long as we
need you and you want to be here. That indicates that you're going
to be here until you have what you need to move on to something
else because your long term goals don't include what you're
interviewing for.
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So put a pin in that one. But need demand. Do you want to do it? Do
you need to do it? Is this going to be fulfilling? If you're in a
second phase of a career, you've probably achieved all the things
that you wanted to in the first one. Is this a transition from
something that you're well established in?
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If it is, you probably already understand the key elements of what
to do moving forward. You may be questioning what you've already
achieved, has given you the already existing mindset and skill and
attitude to represent or demonstrate your desire, your ability in
these types of things because you've done it already. But sometimes
we get tempted to forget that because it's new.
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We think that we have to start from zero, but maybe you don't. So,
David, maybe let's hit on that. What? By the time that you were
saying before you went into that first role where you wanted to get
your foot in the door, what did you already acquire? What had you
already acquired and accomplished to get to that part?
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Well, I think the I don't know if I've talked about this before,
but element is I've looked at the company right. And what is kind
of like the basic, you know, kind of criteria they're looking at
for someone that would be valuable like. So I was going like, you
know, my first role was Microsoft Consulting. What do they need to
do?
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Right? And so I tried to understand, you know, this is the days
before LinkedIn, and I think we had heard of Monster Board was
around back then and is like almost 29 years ago. Right. You know,
it's like, what are they looking for? You know, what do they want
people to have said, I they actually have this called the Microsoft
Certifications, the Microsoft Certified Professional, the MCP
program.
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Right. And so it was kind of expensive at the time, but like, I'm
still in the service. I took a a week of leave. Right. And of
Malcolm all day is just a convocation of like a week on leave,
right. Taking and things like that. So I went to took a microsoft
class, you know, my third party, right, Because this is like 30
years ago, you know, like $2,000 or $3,000, very expensive for one
week class.
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Right. They said, I'm going to go in, take the certification class
in tech, not are learning it right, get certified, take the you
know take the exam and saying, hey, I've got the bare minimum, like
give me a chance because I know that I could demonstrate at this
time. Right. Getting those exams in courses were a demonstration of
the skills that I had.
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Right. That was in addition to that, hey, in my home time. Right.
Things like that still in the service. Like I had a computer, I
installed Windows 93.51. Right. I'm learning the Windows and T
system, right? Because I knew this is what they need people to do.
This is what enterprises are doing. This is the job I want.
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So I'm going to get hands on my free time doing this type of
things. And eventually it did this all. It said Microsoft, give me
a shot at it. I've got these skills, right? Can you give me a shot
and just just let me in and I'll demonstrate it. And a lot of a lot
of work and demonstration of that.
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And I got in. And the reality is also sounds bad, but it is the
what I wanted is that I was doing consulting other things outside
of Microsoft, but I wanted in the club, right. I want in the high
tech I took a 50% pay cut to get into Microsoft because it was the
long term. I was going for the long term, not the short term win a
50% pay cut of my stupid, but I knew I was betting on the long
term.
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And that's what you have to think about. Everybody. Yeah, that's
the sacrifice. Right? So it's it comes down to just to summarize,
what I heard is, you know, fundamentals. You establish
fundamentals, certifications is, you know, top layer of
understanding through information, right? You're getting the
acclimate to be familiar with. And then what the key thing here is
the connection.
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And we've already talked about this, how important it is
relationship building, right? So when you're when you're asking
things of others, it's the reciprocating value, right? It's I'm
give me a chance. I'll give you this. Give me your time. I'll give
you this. You know, there's there's that part. So the relationship
building seemed to appeared to have been key because you're you're
you're you're asking somebody to bet on you.
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And so through this demonstration of things, you know, it's it's
important for us to remember that. The other part here is you said
it, you took a 50% pay cut, which means it's only half. Remember, I
was talking about you don't have to start from zero if you already
acquired or accumulated something. So I know it's not the same, but
just the context of some being symbolic.
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You didn't take 100% pay cut. You took a 50% pay cut. So it means
that you were in some place and then you wanted to shift and you
did these things to prove value. You established yourself in a way
to understand the fundamentals of not only the skill sets, but
relationship building to to get somebody to want to listen, let
alone bet.
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And then, you know, you had to make a sacrifice and you determined
what was going to be acceptable for you based off of the
perspective that you have. This is a long term game. This is this
is the marathon versus the sprint thing. I think you put I think
you got me spot on there or, you know, four things.
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It's like it's a transition. It's a choice. Right? And you take
with every choice, it's kind of like there's opportunity costs,
right? You know, there's physical cost, there's logistical costs,
all the things. And you make these choice for that transition and
that's what you go for. You're making a bet, right? Just like you
make a bet on the roulette wheel in Las Vegas.
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Right. You're making a bet is that return can be big enough. I bet
the return was going to be big enough and it proved to be true. But
and that's what it's all about, the choice you make. Yep. Choices.
So. So let's. Let's go then. So now. Now we've established kind of
the mindset you should have, right? This is, this is, you know, for
those of us and I'll split it up into some categories to make sure
that I'm speaking to each of you, whoever you are.
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Right? So there's the early career folks beginning, which means
that you've spent your latter part of, you know, your late teens,
early adult life doing something to get to somewhere. So I'm
speaking to you. You know, we're talking about those the mid-career
midlife stage, right. So that could be, you know, anywhere from the
mid to late twenties, all the way up to whatever.
00;19;38;26 - 00;19;56;22
Fill in the blank. Right. And then you've got the other right. And
that's those of that of, you know, if you go by a job description,
it's, you know, 0 to 3 years, 3 to 5 years, you know, 8 to 10
years. Think of it in the context of that. When when you're looking
at qualifications, somebody is presenting you what's what's
necessary to qualify for this role, to have a conversation.
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You're determining at that point, do you do you match? And if you
don't, you're thinking about who you are and what you bring to the
table. And then you're you're landing on what am I willing to do
and what am I willing to not do? What am I willing to sacrifice? So
you're building your boundaries. That's important. So now you're at
the table.
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You have this conversation and you land on the opportunity where
somebody is presenting it to you and then says, okay, show me. And
then, David, you had mentioned, you know, I've done these things,
so I'm going to kind of mix this really quickly into this next
questions, because what does it take to get to 30 patents? Well, I
have been in the industry for 30 years almost, but what does it
take?
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Well, the first part is like many things, it's it's like, you know,
a running race. Right. What's it take to complete a5k? What's it
take to complete a ten? Okay. Well, the first and foremost, the
first one's the hardest, isn't it. Right. But with that said is how
do we mostly get through the first one? It's usually because you
have an inspiration.
00;21;06;12 - 00;21;27;11
You have someone that you look up to. You have a model, right? And
often I think for many of us, for you know, that really get into
running and races, especially after our, you know, high school,
college, whatever, just in life saying, you get to go start doing a
you're going to go do a half marathon, someone inspires you,
someone coaches you, Right.
00;21;27;18 - 00;21;52;07
How you find someone, right. To help you through that first one.
And after that, it's kind of like after you do your first five K,
Chris, you know, is in the second one much easier. No big deal.
Right? And I think that's what happens is you get you get that a
coach and I think that's a big part of our topic here is you find
someone inspires you, someone this that motivates you, find someone
that can help you through that first one.
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It just like in the career and from there it's then, you know,
practice, practice, practice. Got it. Thanks for that. And that was
intentional because a lot of us want, metaphorically speaking, we
want the three patents. Now, I want to get to where you are, David.
Now, why I'm asking that question after establishing what we did
early in this conversation is because it takes it takes a couple of
things to get to that part clearly.
00;22;20;17 - 00;22;42;28
And I'm not trying to be insulting to anybody who's listening. What
I'm saying is, don't forget, it takes a while to get to the part of
what you're going to consider to be the goal. And you don't know
when or how long it's going to start or end, let's say. But you got
to decide. You have to decide what it is that you want to do.
00;22;42;29 - 00;23;02;09
You have to now consider what it is that you're willing to do and
not do, and then you present that and then you start. And I think
any entrepreneur will appreciate this. Just start like you
indicated, here is the first one may be the hardest, but we often
know that if I'm not familiar with it, it's not comfortable.
00;23;02;11 - 00;23;20;05
I'm uncertain. I don't know what's going to happen. And that
sometimes creates the self-talk to where we hesitate, we
procrastinate. We, you know, we set it for next year. Tomorrow, we
always say, I'll get it to the next time or whatever, but just
starting is going to get you in the mix because it's not a one time
one hit wonder.
00;23;20;07 - 00;23;53;07
It takes repetitive motion in order to get to the parts that help
you understand through the experience what it takes to build the
experience that when you get to experience or when you get to
demonstrate it to somebody, they can hear it in the examples that
you're providing. So you chose to go into this field. What were the
determining factors after you've gotten your foot in the door and
as you progressed, you know, what are some of the things that you
seem to have introduced to keep you, I guess, moving forward?
00;23;53;07 - 00;24;13;03
But more, more so, you know, not only maintaining your motivation,
but your inspiration, your desire to continue to grow. What are
some of the things that you can talk through as far as what got you
to want to continue? Well, I think it's hard. I think, well, I'll
give you the hard part and then the easy part, Right?
00;24;13;05 - 00;24;36;25
The hard part is the reality is you need to work on something you
love, right? And because it's hard to do something for 30 years
unless you love it. Right. And I think there's a lot of people that
say, hey, you can make more money doing X, right? Or but you really
love working on cars. Right? You know, is like, can you some people
can do it, others cannot.
00;24;36;25 - 00;24;57;03
Right. I think the thing for me about what I loved about security
is it's always dynamic. You know, I think one of my strengths and
weaknesses is that my brain is always working right. It's always
going to be moving If I'm not, I can't sit there for 5 minutes and
my brain not working, I'll go crazy. And so I have to be reading or
doing something or running, running.
00;24;57;03 - 00;25;16;19
I can't be running without listening to something. I'll I'll go
mental. You know, I have to let a podcast. So the thing about
security is it's always dynamic, it's always changing. Everyone
says it's always a horse race between the attackers and the
defenders because it's always a horse race is very dynamic. And for
me, that keeps me energized, right?
00;25;16;21 - 00;25;34;23
And because of that, then also also there's a demand. Let's do the
simple economics thing, supply demand, right, to supply people that
want to or can work on security and the demand of people that need
to work on security, great. It creates a nice economic benefit
right on that. And so I like things in life are simple, as simple
as that.
00;25;34;23 - 00;25;55;09
So great, you know, it's a win win. And so I think that's what
continues to drive me. There's always ways to move up, but you do
reach a point in your career and say that, Hey, I'm happy, right?
You know, because it's about we got the topics of work life
balance. Work life choice, you know, is what people think as you
move up in the world and move up in the ranks of a company in
management, Right.
00;25;55;11 - 00;26;15;00
Life gets easier. It gets harder and harder. You always have to
make a choice. It's like, what's enough? Enough's enough right here
at the right balance. But that's a whole nother, I think, podcast
on it right? But also, I'm going to go back to another point here
is you talked about moving up. Is that the again, it's about a
marathon, right?
00;26;15;00 - 00;26;28;28
It's a career at the long term is that I think I talked about it at
a conference last week is that you stop, you get your foot in the
door and you don't move to the top of the ladder in two years.
Right. People that say, I want to be in security, I want to be a
CSO, right?
00;26;29;00 - 00;26;46;05
It took me 30 years to be a C, so right here, 25 years to be a C,
So right. Did I do it of one step like I became a leader of a five
person team. And my next step is to become a CEO of a 300 person
team? No, it's about a long term marathon plan. It will take
time.
00;26;46;05 - 00;27;14;12
Right. And you're making a bet to get that point. And then you
peak, you know, but it's not a it's you have to think about all the
steps along the way. And those steps could take you 15 years. Did
you know that when you started? I did. I did. I think is you know,
I could say the my dream when I joined Microsoft at the beginning,
I says, you know, the product people said, after ten years, I want
to run, you know, building 26, Building 26 was it was windows at
the time.
00;27;14;12 - 00;27;32;13
So I want to be running windows. Right. Be a vice president of
Windows. Now, ten years later, I wasn't running windows, but ten
years later I was running Windows Security Organization. You know,
so I said a big aspiration, a big goal. I didn't get the at the
end, you know, the full thing, but maybe it was little bit too
aspirational.
00;27;32;13 - 00;28;01;08
But I got a big, you know, major achievement, you know, going from
nothing to ten years. I'm running the Windows Security
organization, something that affects the whole world. Can't
complain. Well, in that and you and you hadn't planned for that. I
never had say this clearly. It wasn't part of your plan to be that
specific in Windows security because you were wanting to do just
Windows, not just windows, but focus on Windows, which for me, not
knowing the depth of it, is different, I'm assuming.
00;28;01;11 - 00;28;23;12
Was that a shift in your original plan? I mean, you know, did you
realize that you were moving away from your original plan as it was
occurring? Because sometimes when you're in the middle of it, you
don't realize what's happening. So was that was that something that
was occurring where you realized all of a sudden or did you see it
evolve over time and then you started if your mind's always
working, did you already connect this as things were happening?
00;28;23;12 - 00;28;43;25
You you were keeping a pulse on the shift away from the original
goal. Yeah, I think, you know, I think that's a great question,
Chris. I think it's it's kind of an evolution as you evolve. It's
like you set a plan, right? And there's an element of you see some
benefits of things and like what you get into a rhythm on you know,
it's kind of like running routes.
00;28;43;25 - 00;28;58;13
Let's go back, you know, is the word of analogy. Like you start to
run like, I'm going to run a marathon. But then you're saying, what
routes do I want to train with? What routes do I'm comfortable
with, What shoes do I like? Right. You kind of start to get to
really to say, you know, yeah, I would do a marathon, but I'm not
going to do a trail marathon.
00;28;58;13 - 00;29;15;00
I'm not going to do a Boston marathon. I just want to do a nice
flat marathon or I want to do one that's, you know, of, you know,
this type of terrain or you know, of type of things. And that
becomes your preference And you're like, that's okay, right? You
know, you adjusted because of how you feel, how you get comfortable
with it.
00;29;15;00 - 00;29;31;06
And that's a big part of it. And as I got more and more security,
that's where I wanted to be. I realized, no, this is me, right?
This is who I am. I'm not the Boston Marathon type. And my going to
try to be that right. And I'm happy with that. And so that's I
think exactly you described.
00;29;31;06 - 00;29;50;01
I got it. So excuse me. The message then is don't forget who you
are. Right. And the things that you've achieved indicate who you
are. And if you want to have stretch goals, it's absolutely fine.
But just keep in mind, because what we're not wanting to do is have
you be tempted to stay where you are and then use the excuse?
00;29;50;01 - 00;30;04;24
Well, that's just who I am. No, Sometimes it's a choice in certain
things to where it's who you choose to be. But if you want
something different and you go back to what we just previously
talked about, you know, what do you want to do and how do you
envision yourself getting to where you want to be? What are you
going to sacrifice?
00;30;04;24 - 00;30;30;17
Those types of things. So so always a demand, always changing.
You'd mentioned that today. How important is security? Well, as you
see in the news every week and it's kind of like, we did a podcast
or we talk about, hey, the we've got a deal. I think this one will
come out later. But like in of all the car dealers, right, You
know, the software used by all car dealers.
00;30;30;17 - 00;30;48;19
Right. They're all shut down, right. You know, because of
ransomware and cybersecurity. Right. It hasn't ended. It's you
know, it's continued to be number one for until I die. Right. I'm
going to say that for sure. Right. Of confidence in saying that.
And I also plan on living for a much longer time, not looking. I
die quickly here.
00;30;48;19 - 00;31;08;16
Everybody will keep running those flat marathons. You'll be fine.
There's no risk. I pulled back, right? Is like I'm not
aspirational. Go for marathons anymore. Half is good enough for me
at this stage, but it's still important, right? That's great. It's
something I love. It's still important. You know, I've chosen that
and I stick with it. Right. But the same time, Right.
00;31;08;17 - 00;31;28;04
I hope I have switched companies. Right? I was at Microsoft, which
I love, right? I went to Google. I've been Oracle. I do make
switches, right? Because sometimes you just say that maybe I get
too comfortable or like, hey, I'm not you know, I'm not expiring,
aspiring to anything anymore. Right. And that's when you take that
little bit of a a minor reset or a minor shift, Right.
00;31;28;04 - 00;31;47;00
Saying I need to adjust a little bit, make a move and where you go.
And I think that's where the most enjoyment comes from. The do you
think or how do you think technology influences that last part
where there's always a demand it's not going to go away as
technology becomes now, everything you know, again, I'm
summarizing, right?
00;31;47;00 - 00;32;07;26
But how important is it where the technology or the the place in
which you do this, how important is that in your decision making?
it's very important. And coming back to our conference last week,
they spoke it is there is discussion which are about CISOs in a
technology and people staying up to date. Here's a reality. Someone
called it out.
00;32;07;26 - 00;32;25;08
I said, CISOs, if you're not learning A.I. right now, you're pretty
much you're done in two years, right? A.I. Artificial intelligence
is not going away. It's going to affect almost everybody, right? We
go back to, you know, computers 20 years ago. If you're not
learning, a computer are going to be able to keep a job. No way.
Right.
00;32;25;11 - 00;32;51;28
Nowadays, can you can anyone get a job and not use a computer
anywhere anymore? Right. Almost impossible. Right. There's maybe a
few things. Agriculture, maybe not. But putting that aside. So now
looking forward in many of our jobs is not just technical people,
but he is part of the life for the rest of our lives. Right? If you
can't adapt to that, you cannot learn that you're going to be stale
in two years.
00;32;52;02 - 00;33;19;06
Right. And I think that's the reality. And two years may be an
arbitrary time selection. Maybe not. I don't know. It doesn't
matter. But the point is, whatever the timeline is, it goes by
quick. Right. And so the preparation, the steps involved in order
to get you ready as an individual that's looking to pursue
something either for the first time or transition from where you
are into something different, which is in the space security.
00;33;19;08 - 00;33;42;15
There's things there are things involved that takes time to
accumulate based off of everything that we're talking about. So
with that, what do you feel is the most significant change that's
occurring outside of what you just talked about? Outside of I boy,
that's what A.I. is going to change a lot, right? I think in a lot
of good things, you know, But, you know, I won't say necessarily
bad things, right?
00;33;42;18 - 00;33;59;07
You know, born and raised in Detroit. Right. And they said, you
know, the seventies, eighties, Right. Robots are going to kill all
the manufacturing. Now, they didn't. It was just a shift. Right. I
think I give you the same thing I think is what's the other you
know shift is I think the air power is still the biggest one.
00;33;59;12 - 00;34;22;29
You know, top of mind is that how do we there's a good analogy that
or a talk that people say that the people that use AI are going to
be more productive than ever. Right? That people who don't use AI
are the people that are going to be in trouble. Right. And I think
that's reality. So, Chris, are you not using AI in creating the
transcript for the podcast?
00;34;23;02 - 00;34;43;00
We are. See, did you think you think about it three years ago?
Could you think of that? You thought of that, that we would, you
know, have a you know, in thought of that would you know, that's a
great point and half jokes but not because that change adapting to
change I think is kind of the the subsequent parallel here.
00;34;43;00 - 00;35;01;00
Right. It's a for me, that particular case when I was presented
with, hey, we're shifting the format now you have to review the
document. I was absolutely not on board initially, right. And it
was because it was to me, it was an inconvenience. I had to read
through it. Is it is it translating properly what it did do?
00;35;01;02 - 00;35;30;03
And I'll be very specific with this had this conversation last
night, as a matter of fact, with a couple of my peers in the team
that I was working on. It's making me better as it translates in
the way that I'm communicating. Am I articulating? Am I enunciating
how I'm speaking is actually now being captured in a way to where
I'm looking at it and say, and I use that kind of a symbolic way of
understanding if it's if it's putting into words the language that
I'm using and the way that I'm phrasing things.
00;35;30;05 - 00;35;49;19
Is it understood on the other end? Is it being received properly?
And so I'm looking at it from that perspective that allowed me to
find something in the inevitable right changes and inevitable
right. We do it every minute of our life. It's changing and
evolving. But I had to I had to get my head wrapped around the
reality that here's the thing that we love to do.
00;35;49;19 - 00;36;09;16
We love having the conversations technology that's using or that's
being used in order to improve. This particular offering is
incorporating A.I.. It's using now that technology to take words
and make it available and accessible for other people. So I had to
kind of think and rewire my brain on how I'm adapting to change.
And it took a minute.
00;36;09;18 - 00;36;28;29
And then after a while, I started to establish a better
understanding of its use through critical thinking and emotional
intelligence, just consideration of others. I think, is the premise
of it. It's going to be beneficial to somebody. So then I was able
to adapt to that. And I think that is the the initial reluctance,
you know, kind of what you're hinting is obvious.
00;36;28;29 - 00;36;48;25
Hey, Chris, you're using it today. You know, did you know? And the
answer is like, yeah, I didn't really think about it until later.
So there's that. I think that's part of the process also is, you
know, spinning it back to career choices. It's not going away. And
it's not just technology is not going right. Security is absolutely
not going away.
00;36;48;25 - 00;37;11;13
In fact, it's, you know, one 2% necessary for everything that's
here. The changing of it, you know, the things that are involved
includes not only the use of it, but how it's now being are
influencing society in ways that it's modifying the way we're
thinking about what we're doing right. And it's giving us a better
estimate of how effective we are.
00;37;11;13 - 00;37;31;18
And I use my example, use yours, but it is helping make you better
if it's used properly, right? I mean, there's other things that,
you know, when you kind of how do you say when you take it and not
take it for granted, but you abuse it, you know, and used for other
things, There's that too, which is kind of indirectly the same,
but.
00;37;31;20 - 00;38;08;04
All right. So going back to careers, somebody decided this is what
they want to do. What can you tell them right now today, if
somebody was in front of you asking for that that break, what do
you say? The. Yeah, the you know, the I have to say, I mean, to go
back to A.I. right now, there's of compared to like machine
learning from, you know, ten years ago it was very hard to learn
and it take a lot you know, but almost people had to go back almost
to college or college level, you know, kind of education to really
how to use it.
00;38;08;07 - 00;38;33;24
A.I. is much different, much simpler. And there's a huge demand for
people to use A.I. and how to use A.I., everything from prompt, not
just from a security perspective, but I think as if anybody wants a
leap in a change. Right now, A.I. is crystal clear. There's lots of
opportunities, and if myself, I'm learning it because I don't want
to be phased out to be stale in two years.
00;38;33;26 - 00;38;49;23
But if anybody is, you know, saying you got a little bit of
freedom, you got a little bit of time, and it's not going take a
lot of time, and you want to jump into a new world that's exploding
and not going away, jump into A.I. and there's training and
education, other things jumping in. There's tons of
opportunity.
00;38;49;23 - 00;39;09;15
Everybody, I'd like to see that someone actually knows A.I. and how
to help implement it, you know, in a company or applications or
other types of things, you can't get a job. Yeah, I think something
else is wrong. Got it. What would that be considered From what you
just said, like the most basic place to start, Is it just diving
in?
00;39;09;15 - 00;39;32;23
I mean, how. How would I know exactly where to start today with
what's available in order to not get ahead of myself by just doing
a search for A.I.? Learn A.I., and then you start there where I
don't want to start in the middle. I want to start the beginning.
Yeah, I think there's a limit. So I think there's tons of things on
Coursera, Microsoft, Oracle, others.
00;39;32;23 - 00;39;51;15
Right? You all have had introduction to A.I. and how to use it in
their systems and actually getting to be an implementer or a user,
right? Or someone that can be a practitioner, you know, in these
things is all these companies are looking to implement. But not
everyone's ready to jump on it. Like is like many companies, they
want to start doing it, but they need some help, right?
00;39;51;15 - 00;40;07;13
You're like, Great, Google learn it, right? And then you can help
other companies that need that talent. Because I know there's
there's many companies, especially small and medium businesses
especially. Right. It's like they're going to have people learning
and onboarding to this in helping them know they need it. And
they're going to hire people that can help them with that.
00;40;07;17 - 00;40;34;09
And that's an opportunity when there's a need, that means that's
something you go after, right? And it's crystal clear everyone's
trying to do it. Ooh, I was getting ready to kind of just taper us
off to the start. But you just mentioned one thing. How do I stand
out from others if everybody's doing it and everybody's using it
and everybody's trying to learn how to do it, how do I stand out to
be the David of 30 years ago today?
00;40;34;12 - 00;40;48;22
You know, I think coming back to an element is, you know, showing
the the the artifacts of that. Right. It's you can start for easy.
There's lots of things. Do you do you have a blog right. Do you
have a podcast? Do you have a video blog? Right. You have a YouTube
channel, right? Do you have a GitHub repo?
00;40;49;00 - 00;41;10;23
Do you have a medium, you know, kind of or substack, you know, kind
of things? If you know some things, write it down, create an
artifact, right? It's not about writing big white paper to write a
blog, you know, do a podcast, you know, things like that, build
your repository, build your portfolio of things you know how to do,
and then you put it in your resume and say, Hey, Chris, you know, I
heard you're looking for someone.
00;41;10;26 - 00;41;25;05
Take a look at my work right? You know, say people like, I look at
your resume, I don't know if you know, do it like, hey, go look at
my web, my, my YouTube channel, go look at my my medium blog and
things like that and show you that I know what I'm doing. Right.
And and guess what?
00;41;25;08 - 00;41;45;03
People will be interested, right? Because it's so easy. Because
they don't have to interview you. Because people do it. Like
interviewing people that might be worthless. No, it's a waste of
our time, right? We only want to interview people that we think are
going to pass and are be great. Right? But if you make it so easy
for someone to see that what you can really do in total safety,
right?
00;41;45;06 - 00;42;01;10
They're like, great, They're going to pick it. If you got the
stuff, they're going to grab you really quick because it's so easy
and safe for that, right? Do the investment. I know. Chris, do you
like to be you know, you want to be a movie star, You know, many
years ago. Right. And you had your your portfolio of all your
pictures and everything's like that.
00;42;01;10 - 00;42;15;26
You got to have pictures, right? You got to be a movie star. You
want to be a model. You got to have pictures, kind have a
portfolio. So you want to be an eye, you want to be in security,
you want to be in, you know, technical create your portfolio, make
it available publicly, and then point people at it.
00;42;15;28 - 00;42;35;02
Now, I have to say, you're bringing up things that I'm wondering if
you're trolling me and because you're in security, are you are you
doing is there some subversion here that you're actually finding
things out about me and you're finding in the depths of the dark
web? I'm understand. Anyway, and we're back. So. Yes. Got it. So it
tracks.
00;42;35;02 - 00;42;52;13
I mean, everything that you're saying, David, is it saying, you
know, there's there's effort involved? Probably having a solid
plan. Initial plan doesn't have to be 90% bulletproof, but you need
to start with a plan that's going to help you where you are, get to
the next step or to have a vision with Chris and see if there's a
plan.
00;42;52;13 - 00;43;11;06
It's like I say, let's go to military, right? What's the target?
Who is the target? What is the target? Then you build the plan to
take out that target. Right? Fair point. And you said that in the
past. I mean, you're consistent in that. You need to understand
where you want to go, but also anticipate that things will things
will change along the way.
00;43;11;11 - 00;43;28;03
And you were a good example of that, right? So in ten years, your
plan shifted a little bit, wasn't entirely off base. It was just,
you know, the azimuth just veered off from the original target in
this case. So, you know, but be gentle on yourself as that occurs.
Right? I mean, I think this is one of the things that's important
for us to know that.
00;43;28;03 - 00;43;50;25
Nobody's harder on us than ourselves, I would hope. Right. Because
that keeps us dedicated and disciplined. Right. And, you know, the
motivation is you. It's not something external influence, you know,
that's inspiring. It's not motivation, things like that. I think
it's just a matter of be true to who you want to be. Right.
Understand who that is, how you envision yourself, you know, a
year, two years, five years, ten years from now, what do you want
to do?
00;43;50;25 - 00;44;15;21
When do you want to retire? When do you want to separate from the
workforce and live your best life in the ways that you imagine?
Whatever it is matters less, but have that trajectory lined out
with a variation, an understanding of a variation of degrees that
will occur over time and be okay with it. Give yourself permission
to be okay with change and then, you know, read the transcript in
the know how it can be used.
00;44;15;21 - 00;44;54;10
Just to use myself as the example of what change includes. Any, any
last comments? David And that's kind of I think the is I think
always always expect the unexpected, right? You know, and things
like that. It's like, you know, is, is we get into rhythm, we get
happy with the way things are going, making progress. But then
always be aware that hey, the unexpected, right Could be a minute
from now, a week from now, a year from now, always being aware,
being always self-conscious and is part of that I think is we've
talked about before is like be self-critical, always asking, you
know, feedback from others or your peers, your mentors, like where
am
00;44;54;10 - 00;45;08;27
I going to stumble? Where am I about to fail? What am I missing? If
you don't ask that, you know you're going to get blindsided every
time. Yes, And that's a great point, too, because you've mentioned
that before. You know, feedback having you're in your circle,
somebody that's willing to give you the hard feedback that should
stay. Right.
00;45;08;29 - 00;45;27;16
And that's the best quote that I've heard from you. Top, top three
at least. Probably number two of the reality. You know it. You want
to hear you want to hear those hard realities from others to help
you get better. So thank you, David. And if anybody has any further
cause I know we're just scraping the surface on this, I hope it was
helpful for everybody.
00;45;27;16 - 00;45;47;17
But, you know, if you're if you want to shift careers or enter the
workforce in the in the security space or A.I. or whatever, David,
is it okay if people reach out and if so, how? Absolutely. You can
find us on LinkedIn, you know, things like that. Always happy
answer. I answer everybody that's always looking for some advice or
connections, things like that.
00;45;47;19 - 00;46;06;26
I can't take on mentees at this point, but at the same time I
always ask questions are answer questions, and in return I'll say,
Hey, please listen to our podcast and kind of spread the
word.
Yes, please. All right, everyone, keep moving forward.
Let's roll.