Oct 31, 2023
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You're listening to the Oracle Maven podcast, where we bring people
together from the veteran affiliated community to highlight
employees, partners, organized actions, and those who are
continuing the mission to serve. Welcome to the Maven podcast. I'm
your host, Chris Spencer, and in this episode I'm joined by our
co-host David Cross, senior vice president and SAS, chief
information security officer within Oracle.
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Why should I invest my time in it? Who is this person and what is
expected of me? Communicating for impact is our topic today, and we
cover the importance of recognizing the things we should focus on
to bring value to others. We all may relate to the challenges we
face when we're trying to influence others. And as we mentioned
before in our previous podcast regarding relationships.
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One of the most important steps we can take is to prepare. Being
mindful of our purpose and what we want from each interaction is to
see what others need to commit to our requests. Listen in as we
cover the basics on steps to consider for becoming an asset to
others through communication, we have all we need to become the
person we want to be.
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Let's remember how to connect with others when sincerity and
genuine intent. As we continue the mission to serve. Thanks for
listening. We hope you enjoy this episode and please remember to
check in on your buddies and family. David's contact details are in
the podcast description and you can always find me on LinkedIn
David, what's happening?
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Chris, I've been waiting for you because I've no patience when it
comes to doing these podcasts, so here we are.
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I appreciate your patience. That's actually a form of what we're
going to talk about today to say I'm sorry I'm late. You now say
something to the end of thank you for your patience. Communicating
for impact. That's what we're talking about today.
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It's a big topic is very, very important. Right. And certainly one
of the things that I've kind of stressed over the years and been
one of my my major attributes is right. Is communication right. And
going back to my days at Microsoft. Right. They had to think we
program the Bill Gates and I spent spend a lot of time on it.
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But I actually Bill Big Gates every year we do these things. We
papers. In one year, I was awarded one of the top 30 papers of the
year to Bill Gates. And what was it about? It was all about success
in a distributed teams and the success that I found after my
experience working overseas as an expat was it's all about
communication.
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That is how you can make a team successful. That's how you can be
successful. And it's one of the most important things that people
forget about, especially even in the high tech industry.
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Yeah, that's a good point. I think it's one of those things taken
for granted where we often think that one would assume, you know,
what I'm talking about, and that's based off of, again, perception
based reality PR or PR. I guess is a nice little acronym, but maybe
trademark that I think a lot of what plays into that is there's an
assumption right out of the gate and we we draw these conclusions
based off of those assumptions from some reference.
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Right. Were you recalling an experience that you've had to say, I'm
speaking with the senior vice president today? I assume he knows
what I'm what I'm talking about. So I'll start with X or I'm I'm
guessing she's heard what I've what I've come to talk about. So
I'll start with, you know, this. And we and we conclude these
things and we approach oftentimes approach the situation with that
assumption.
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And there's a disconnect. I mean, there's often a disconnect
because we also have to, you know, introduce these these phrases
of, you know, well, let's take a step back. You know, these trendy
phrases that people saying, well, if you're getting to that point,
it's probably safe to say that you could have done it differently,
probably even say you could have done it better if you stop
assuming that people in the roles that they're in know what it is
that you're trying to achieve.
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I think you're spot on. And certainly I think your favorite
character in Seinfeld, Kramer, says, like, you never assume, right?
I'm not going to draw it on a board. Y you never assume right? But
we remember that. And I think it's actually one of the relevant
challenges, especially now that we're operating electronically and
virtually right you know, working from home, working remotely,
email slack teams, those type of things, is that it's easy to
assume that your target of communication has the full context that
you do.
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But that's actually one of the biggest mistakes and risks yeah.
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And there's a process. So in the, in that you've mentioned that you
have the 30 papers, you, you had one, but can you maybe walk us
through some of the things you did to prepare and through through
your experiences to be able to kind of narrow down how do you start
to think about communicating for impact?
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So one of the things I learned about especially distributed teams,
certainly here at Oracle and Google, Microsoft, all the company's
been at right is we're very distributed. It's we're not one side
Right. And a big part of being successful from a leadership
perspective, you know, from an engagement perspective, from, you
know, from a good operational perspective is about communication
and so I go back to my days of high school drama.
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It is that, well, you have to announce CAA, take your word and
exaggerate your emotions when on the stage now because otherwise
people may miss what you're trying to say. But it applies to
business as well is so that you actually need to overcommunicate,
especially in a distributed world. What I did and I learned many
years ago this may be go back and to be, you know, almost like
gosh, almost 15 years ago I write a weekly mail.
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It's called that weekly dossier. It's not a newsletter. It's not a
status mail because what do people do with newsletters and status
matters? Chris, what do you do when you see one.
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To that have a.
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Tendency.
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To ignore it?
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Yeah, exactly. That's why it's called the dossier. Now, what I do
for all my teams is for my team, for other groups that I work with,
you know, stakeholders and things like that. I write a weekly mail,
same format, same time every Friday I send it out. It's got news,
it's got the information, it's got decisions. What the team is
doing, it builds this musical rhythm, the drumbeat with
everyone.
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So they always know what's going on. And people ask, David, What's
going on with X? Or Did you make a decision on why? I always have
one answer. Did you read the dossier? And then people almost get
addicted to this. And it's very, very important, especially in
these distributed environments, and how you can build this rhythm
and connection using communication that everyone can rely upon.
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And it's amazing of the impact that you can have about how
effective you can be. And it's all about communication.
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It is and even then, right? So it's kind of breaking it down. So
credibility, I think, plays a part in that. Right? And so we joked
a little bit about newsletter, but maybe not, but if you're
receiving something from somebody, you know, it becomes now a value
proposition is what I'm receiving from somebody a from somebody
that I find to be a value to me and there's levels to that.
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And then it's saying, well, if it is a box check. Yep. And you say,
well, what is it? Then again, the content now is, you know, you,
you associate it the value and say, well, is this something that
I'm going to invest in reading? So we talk to you and I talk. The
last episode that you and I got together on was about relationships
and we and we blew through a bunch of different scenarios that
established now a point to where, you know, you individual with
other individuals or a group of people have established a certain
level of understanding with each other form relationship, the type
of relationship matters.
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Well, if the type of relationship is allowing you to now find each
other to be credible or bringing some value, then you would invest
in that. And I think that's part of this other effect of
communication is the investment. Do I want to invest time in what
is being delivered? So have you ever experienced in anything that
you've done, David, where you thought that you had that level of
understanding with the relationship to be able to communicate like
that and you found it to be different than what you had
expected?
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Absolutely. I think this is, you know, coming back to our are a
note about assuming things, right? Is if you fire off a
communication, whether it's verbal or an email, a slack message,
those type of things, is that in sometimes when it's virtual or
electronic, you're maybe not you may not be receiving the
indicators is how you're communicating when is being received
right?
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Is it being understood? Is it actually being perceived the wrong
way? Are you offending someone and this is one of the challenges as
well with communication. It's not just about the sending. It's also
the receiving and understanding that and this is important that you
need to ask is did did I send makes sense. Did is the information
I'm providing of value to you?
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Is it do you have any feedback? Right. In communication? And I
think it's when we're in person, we have the visual clues and other
things. It's much easier to understand oh, it's clearly my
communication is a value and being received warmly or no, I'm
created a problem. And I think that's one of the things you always
have to check are in different types of virtual and electronic
communication is you may not have that asynchronous or that, you
know, the dual, you know, kind of feedback loop yep.
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You touched on it, I think, and thanks for introducing that. It's
the reading room. So, you know, assumptions, presumptions, and
implications, you know, there's some point where we're going to
we're going to create a truth for ourselves for whatever reason, in
order to make us feel confident and comfortable or to to convince
us that there's something else that's needing to shift or pay
attention to how we invest in that thought now comes with, you
know, being able to understand why, why, why am I doing this?
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Why? Well, first of all, why am I communicating? Second is what's
my intention or what am I expecting to get out of that
communication? And then the next thing is, well, during that
communication or that interaction, whether it's the visual, right,
whether you're on video or in person, the body language, the
environment, you know, there's subtle hints that you can understand
based off of being more skilled at recognizing those those
alterations in body language and visual aids.
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Right. You know, you have to you have to learn what those could
indicate. And then then a verbal component to where now like old
school stuff where you're on the phone, you can't see anything. You
now be connected to the audible component. And the thing about
telephony You know, the the roles in which people have live in live
in day to day through the phone where they have hundreds of calls a
day.
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Those are probably the most skilled at being able to recognize how
the call is going from that, those putting those reps in to know
how am I seeing or how am I hearing something shift and know what
to say next. So when when you go through your examples, there's a
clear indicator that something didn't go as expected What are some
of the elements that now you can incorporate or the skills that you
can understand that you either need or maybe emphasize on how to
pivot from an expectation when you made that assumption that there
was value on the receiving end, but it doesn't appear that it's
being received as intended.
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Great question. I think one of the things, Chris, is that you're
saying being a great communicator means you're a great listener.
And I think coming back to your exact point, especially when we
don't have the the visual clue sometimes. Right, in just audio.
Now, I'll come back to your question in just a moment here. But
first, I want to say that coming back to relationships, like you
and I know each other very well and we can detect and you know,
when there's a change of voice or tone in our voice, because we
know it.
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Sure. Because we've got a strong relationship. But it's much harder
when you don't have a relationship with someone and you don't have
visual clues, your only audio. It can be much more difficult. And
this is sometimes why people say doing a zoom call or other things,
you really want to encourage doing visuals so that you can get to
know each other a little bit better because you don't have as much
context now coming back to you.
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Your other question is being a great communicator. When I say this,
being a great listener and this is where questions come into play
is if you're if you're expressing you have an unknown audience or
an audience you don't have a strong relationship with, or the full
context is that you may share information, but then you ask
questions right.
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And listen, because sometimes you want to say, did did I make sense
in what I just said? Does that fact Is that the same fact to your
understanding? And you're asking questions and gives you an
opportunity to listen, to understand how is the communication being
received? Is it coming around with it coming across correctly and
those type of things?
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You said something right there, the implied self-awareness. So I
feel like maybe there's a subset that before you're able to ask the
questions, the self-awareness that plays a part, the emotional
intelligence that plays a part in recognizing what you're good at.
Let's talk a little bit about that really quickly is when who says
you're a good communicator? How do you how do you come to realize
whether or not you're a good communicator?
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Well, you know, it's very thought provoking. I think we in some
ways you're a good communicator saying that is then that is when
you have lots of listeners and lots of people asking for you to
communicate. In some ways, I could say that. Well, I must be doing
something. Okay. If I'm having, you know, lots of people sign up to
receive my dossier because it's an opt in if no one is signing up
to receive it.
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And then I'm like, hmm, my communication, it may be faulty or had
zero value or doing something wrong. And then you can ask those
type of questions So that's very Thought-Provoking, Chris.
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Well, thank you. I think it comes from what what you now just
again, you're leading us down the path, right? So it goes maybe as
Sekulic comes back to who's invested in listening, who is coming to
you for help, who is coming to you to ask this questions? Who's
coming to you to engage? And if if you can now do a risk assessment
and then realize at some point there's got to be some switch that
flip to say no.
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Maybe a common reality. Right. Somebody might resonate with this. I
do it. I mean, it resonates with me because oftentimes I'll reflect
and say, hey, I think I'm underutilized or hey, I think I'm not
being X, you know, whatever I'm realizing that there's something
that isn't making me as busy as maybe I should be or as I think I
should be.
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I think that's the catalyst to understand. Well, is it a meeting or
is it a something else thing? Because the questions that you're
saying once you've know, say, graduated to that point to understand
that there's questions needing to be asked. I think you have to ask
those to yourself first and then you can now qualify yourself to go
out and seek understanding.
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You know, what is it exactly that I'm trying to get from the things
that exist or don't exist? You know, what's the effect of my
communication method? What's the effect of my message? All those
types of things. And then asking the right questions. So no
sidetrack from from the path you were taking us. But how do you how
do you come to learn the right questions to ask?
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You know, you gave some examples.
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You know, the right questions to ask is I think is really about
validating or expressing your you know, what you are communicating
in a way that people will answer. Right. So in some ways, if you
make a statement, right, it's about asking a question about that
fact or that information. Right. And that will that really, I would
say is false, but it encourages someone to answer saying that.
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Does everyone agree that, you know, this this data is correct and
that will it will drive. It's like the art of influence that will
drive an answer or, you know, and you want to almost you want to
state things in a way in a question that that people will want to
answer. You know, it's almost trying to be controversial.
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Sometimes, right. In that really helps you to draw out that that
that feedback that you're looking for. Got it.
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So so finding a way and it's I believe that what you're saying is
implying that there's an interest. So there's people that are
invested to be around each other in order to have the existence you
know, without getting overly philosophical is to say you're here.
So there seems to be a willingness to be here. So to make it
interesting is the types of questions where they have an interest
in answering because they're invested in I guess the outcome is the
best the best way to say it.
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So I mean, I'm thinking conflict resolution, problem solving,
brainstorming. You know, at some point people are interested in
getting to the bottom of it to come together, which I think is the
ultimately the goal is to bring people together to do something,
whether it's to have fun or, you know, you know, read the
newsletter or the dossier or to solve problems So what is off the
top of your head?
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What would be a good book that can help us shine light on a path
that we can take to learn?
00;18;30;10 - 00;18;54;26
Well, I mean, back to this this session, you know, one is the art
of influence, right? And the art of art of influence really
provides all these techniques mainly about communication in that
how you can get what we say is reciprocity, right? Is you want to
do things in a way that forces someone in a respectful, friendly
way to return.
00;18;54;26 - 00;19;19;25
Right. Or to respond. Right. And that's a big part of
communication, is that when you get people to respond, you know,
that they're understanding it or they're accepting it, they're
going to value it. The other book I'd like to recommend is, you
know, Jerry Weisman presenting to Win. Right. And it's really about
the art of telling a story, because sometimes I think people are,
you know, can communicate.
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But you need to often tell a story, especially when you're trying
to have impact. And there's a lot of art and science in that as
well. So those are my two recommended recommendations.
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That's good. Those are good ones. I've heard of both of them. I
think I dabbled in the first one, but the book, the book that I'm
referencing in a lot of times in connecting dots, that comes by way
of influence. It's a book, The New Science of Leading Change. And
there's I think there's a couple I don't I don't remember there
being just one author.
00;19;53;03 - 00;20;13;07
I think there's a couple of them that work together on it. But
influence are the new science of leading change and in that is
connecting dots. So as we're talking about communicating
effectively or communicating for impact. You talked about it being
a being a good listener includes a lot of different ways of doing
that. How you demonstrate doing that.
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I mean, sitting there, you know, some skimming off the top of what
some suggestions would include would be to, you know, the eye
contact. If you're, you know, in front of somebody, you know, the
nodding the body language would interpret or try and be translated
and assumed to be, oh, they're engaged, they're paying attention.
Are there other methods that will kind of go down a level of depth
to where you can be credible in being an active listener is, you
know, reciting or summarizing something that, you know, so what
you're saying David, is this and then I repeat what it is a summary
that I've heard you say in a way that resonates with me.
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And then it kind of the things that you're looking for when you set
it reciprocity. So now I'm relaying it or volleying it back to you,
like, this is what I heard. This is how I interpret it. Did I get
that right? That is why I bring up influence because it's
connecting dots. And I think that's what we're talking about is in
the dance that we do of communication, whether it's written or
verbal or visual, whatever it is, we're saying something It's it's
being able to now reciprocate the level of effort that goes into
what's happening.
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And we walk away with something of value. And in my way, what I
what I love to do is connect the dots and see how critical thinking
plays a part in communicating for impact because now we're talking
about one thing, but maybe it's now connecting to other things that
we've talked about in the past or we should be talking about as as
somebody in your position.
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How important is that?
00;21;51;23 - 00;22;14;12
It's very, very important trait is that because of often we say we
can say we have a loud voice that needs to have lots of impact. If
you don't have the validation, you don't have the adoption and
understanding, right. That means things can go wrong and awry very,
very quickly and very, very, you know, in a very bad way.
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Right. And we can see that throughout the world. Where someone says
one thing and intended another. And really, well, now they
everything's gone wrong. Right. And the perception the choices, the
decisions, you know, can go completely off track. And that's why
it's so important, I think, to sometimes even test your
communication when it's going to be when it's needed to have major
impact.
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Major results is sometimes you may need to test it before you
deploy it into production, if you will.
00;22;49;16 - 00;23;10;21
I like the flow because as you were talking about that, I was
thinking, well, what happens next and the test or the impact or the
effect comes in, what happens next? So, you know, we we talk about
things. You know, we prepare to talk about things. And then through
that, through that action, we learn. We're supposed to learn
things, right?
00;23;10;21 - 00;23;30;15
I mean, that's the you know, maybe it's an unwritten expectation
that, you know, as you go through things, you have lessons learned,
hopefully, or mindful enough to appreciate what it is that's being
learned or as a possibility, an opportunity to be learned so you
can grow so you can get to know each other better so you can do all
of these types of things.
00;23;30;15 - 00;24;06;24
But some of the elements also include outside of that moment. So
after the newsletter or the dossier sent, after the engagement,
after the Zoom meeting, after the on site meeting, after the face
to face interaction, whether it's at a coffee shop, or somewhere
else, how important is in this scheme of communicating? How
important is what happens next? And when do you think the intervals
are that you engage with others as you communicate, as the
relationship grows?
00;24;08;08 - 00;24;38;16
Well, in some ways, though, I, as I was hinting at earlier, is I
try to keep it a regular rhythm, like saying that part of it just
like the newspaper or newscast or other things is you want to have
a regular rhythm that's very consistent because then people can bet
on it, they can count on it, but also it can give you the
opportunity to make corrections, corrections or adjustments or
pivots so that, for example, if you're if it's a random
communication like oh boy, I made a mistake, like, all right, how
are you going to correct that?
00;24;38;17 - 00;25;05;07
You know? And then it becomes very obvious and, you know, sometimes
damaging in itself versus no, you can always update every week,
like, oh, there's been a slight change, but everyone knows that
they'll get those updates and that regular format, regular timing,
and it's easy to make the errata or the changes or corrections. And
that's one of my recommendations is build the rhythm, build the
cadence of the music and people will align with that drumbeat.
00;25;06;03 - 00;25;39;23
That that's that's not only a one of the most relevant statements
we've made at the moment, considering this is a podcast where
listenership, probably as a result of the rhythm in which we
deliver these, is an influence on how much activity we can report
through the analytics. How often are people listening? Well, the
more consistent you are in delivering the more of a repetition, the
more repetition that gets into somebody in an expectation.
00;25;39;23 - 00;25;49;19
And so the randomness, I think, is one of those qualifying words
that says if it feels random, they'll perceive it as that and
probably take less interest. Would you agree?
00;25;50;27 - 00;26;03;26
100% right. If you can bet on something and that's going to be
there, you you embrace it, you, you take it on versus it being
random. Like I don't know if it's ever going to come back. Why
should invest my time in it?
00;26;04;22 - 00;26;29;15
There it is good. All right. So to to summarize. So, you know,
communicating for impact, it involves many things, but much of it
has to do with an interest and then withdraws the investment. And
that comes by way of oversimplifying. It comes by way of being
credible or somebody finding value in it, whatever it may be and
whomever it comes from.
00;26;30;06 - 00;26;50;08
And then it has to do with the engagement component of saying you
know, are you are you listening to what I'm saying? Are you hearing
what I'm not saying? Or is there is there an element of where you
seem to demonstrate an understanding of me as a as an individual
expressing to you what it is that I think we should be talking
about?
00;26;50;08 - 00;27;09;19
And then how do you demonstrate the understanding in that comes in
many ways, many forms. But, you know, the frequency in which the
engagement occurs, I think is as a is a key point, because if you
want to keep the momentum going and be relevant with it to respect
the interaction, then you'd want to find that rhythm. And that
could be different.
00;27;09;20 - 00;27;26;21
It depends on the whole ideal situation. You know, it could be
hours, days, months, weeks. It does matter. It just it's relevant
to whatever the situation is. And in closing. David, what do you
think we can do for next steps to test it, as you say?
00;27;27;12 - 00;27;48;20
I think one of the things that everyone, you know, needs to think
about is what is your rhythm? Right. And because some people will
be daily, some people weekly, some people are monthly, but I think
is build their rhythm right. And within that rhythm, then you say
just like everything is like, okay, what is your development cycle?
What is your test cycle?
00;27;48;20 - 00;28;04;15
You know, what is your feedback cycle? You know? You know, your
release cycle, right? Beta, traditional project management and
communication is exactly that. Even though I'd say it's small. What
you mean after project management, if you really think about it,
when especially things of impact, you want to have a full
cycle.
00;28;05;01 - 00;28;33;09
Got it. Spoken like a true developer. I'll take a different twist
and just say how you make them feel. You know, so if the test for
me and the challenge from all four meet all of you, myself
included. David, do you find somebody today that you haven't
reached out to check in on them and try to uplift how they feel,
try to be a value to them today and then see how you can
collaborate in a way that makes a difference in their lives as well
as yours?
00;28;34;00 - 00;28;36;03
Fair to say it is.
00;28;36;25 - 00;28;57;26
I think things for summarize are really well. I hope people get
some value from this and I'm thinking for our next episode, you
know, we're talking about relationships. We talk about
communication. But Chris, you brought up earlier and I think we
should have a next episode on this about visibly witty, right? The
people. You can be the greatest technical person or the greatest,
you know, engineer, the greatest, you know, craftsman.
00;28;58;03 - 00;29;08;18
But if you have no visibility then how can you be successful? And
then it comes down to relationships and communication. So I think
that should be our next episode.
00;29;10;04 - 00;29;20;10
Time. Stay tuned. Same Bat Channel. No. All right, David. No, I
think that's on the docket for next. And on that note, keep moving
forward.