Sep 5, 2024
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You're listening to the Oracle MAVEN podcast, where we bring people
together from the veteran affiliated community to highlight
employees, partners, organizations and those who are continuing the
mission to serve what one of the main podcast, I'm your host, Chris
Spencer. And in this episode I'm joined by our cohost David Cross,
senior Vice President and SAS Chief Information Security Officer
within Oracle.
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And today we are joined by our special guest, Mike Reavy, Senior
Vice President for security engineering at Electronic Arts, and
also an Air Force veteran. We're really excited about this episode
because of how many slivers of information we touched on. Mike's
clear line of sight and the small things they give him the tools to
be successful, his credit to his humility, self-awareness and
commitment to leading people.
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We talk mentors change commitment, integrity, patience, and it's
packed with much more. This is definitely an episode you'll want to
make time for. We have all we need to become the person we want to
be. So let's remember how to connect with others with sincerity. In
genuine intent as we continue the mission to serve. Thanks for
listening. We hope you enjoy this episode and please remember to
check in on your buddies and family.
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David's and Mike's contact details are in the podcast description
and you can always find me on LinkedIn. All right. Good morning,
David. Good morning, Mike. Good morning, Chris. It's great to be
back. You know, I know the community is waiting for a while for
this, so but we have a special edition today, don't we? We do. And
there's there's I'll let I'll let our guest talk more about his
intro and things.
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But we have Mike Reaves, senior vice president, security
engineering over at Electronic Arts. And what we're doing today is
we're just tapping into our network. We've been talking about it
for many episodes, how our networks are important, how wherever we
end up, it's always important to keep in touch with others that
you've grown up with or experience in different lives.
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And as you get to where you want to be, you know, you call in those
not only call them favors, but you call in that chat and say, Hey,
we have a conversation that we'd love to get you involved in. Do
you want to do it? So David reached out to Mike. Mike said yes, and
here he is.
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Mike, welcome. Hey, thank you. Thank you. I know. Look, I just to
be clear, I view this as a as a real opportunity. I appreciate you
guys give me a chance to be out here. No check called out at all if
I get a chance to talk About what? We're going to talk about, I
want to take up take up the time, and I will do it.
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So, yeah, let's start out a little bit with your background, kind
of just, you know, the typical stuff where you grew up, the choices
you made and how you ended up where you are. And then then we'll
get into the get into the weeds. Yeah, yeah. I'll try to make this
quick, but like where I grew up on a dirt road in a trailer next to
a creek named Poverty Creek.
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You know, we didn't have any cable television as the joke. That's
that's very real. But my dad, he was. He was. He was a retired
colonel, so we were only in the trailer while we were building a
house. I don't want to give this scene of, like, deep poverty, even
though we did live on a creek and and poverty creek.
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But I will say what was kind of crazy about that upbringing, it was
in lower kind of lower Alabama, northern Florida. It was
technically Florida. But I swear I thought our state song was Sweet
Home Alabama, where I grew up. And I had a much different accent.
But I did. I did. I did manage to get on the Internet back in the
early nineties on that dirt road.
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So that kind of was a good signal and sort of where my career went.
So that's where I grew up. You want me to kind of go into how I got
to where I am now because yeah, so where you are in where you just
described and you're building a place and then all of a sudden
you're old enough to make your own choices and then you do.
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So let's go with that. Yeah. So, So, you know, my dad was a pilot.
He flew A-10s in other planes. So I was going to be a fighter pilot
like my dad, like all my friends, you know, that I was around
growing up and but I also had this deep, deep love for computers.
So long story short, like, ended up with an option to go to the Air
Force Academy in Colorado Springs.
00;03;58;16 - 00;04;14;23
And I and I took that option to go to go fly. And my first year
there, I ended up breaking my back snowboarding, which was Deckard
me for any of the cool fighter jets that I wanted to do and made me
think a bit about like, Hey, what I want to do in my life. And
that's when I actually changed my major to computer science.
00;04;14;23 - 00;04;33;09
You know, to take up this hobby and maybe turn it into a career.
Looking back, you know, as one of these great transitions that paid
off really well. So I went to the Air Force getting out of the
academy. I actually was a communications officer, worked there.
Basically, if you guys know Scott Air Force Base, Illinois, there's
a lot of commands there, trans comms there.
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AMC's command was there. So it was a big installation and I was
part of the COM squadron supporting the networks in the late
nineties. So as a young lieutenant, I was technically in charge of
10,000 workstations across multiple commands. You know, as you
probably know, there is the senior enlisted personnel that knew
what was really going on from my first few years there.
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And but I really got a deep a deep crash course and had a support
network. And that was the time when there were things like the
Melissa virus and stuff going on in security. And so I was in
charge of messaging, which was basically exchange back then. And
the help desk, which got flooded when, you know, the generals in
there just couldn't get their emails.
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So that was my introduction to computers in the real world. And
then actually my, my, I spent all five active duty years at Scott
Air Force Base. My last two years I went to a group called Scope,
and they basically did. We flew to every Air Force base as a small
team and did a kind of a two week optimization and securing of
their network, because back then Air Force networks were basically
built kind of out of closets, you know, like maybe some tech
sergeant knew what to do and built out a domain on windows into
it.
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So this was part of the Air Force trying to professionalize their
networks worldwide. So as a young lieutenant, young captain, junior
captain, I was able to fly two weeks on, two weeks off and lead
small teams. I mean, just you don't get an experience like that
anywhere else. You know, like they they threw a bunch of training
at me, but I was hands on.
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I had to, like, go convince people that really, you know, sort of
bled over creating these networks, that this young lieutenant,
young officers and contractors were going to help their networks
and then leave. That's a dicey conversation, right? That's how I
got started. And then I had a job lined up with a government
contractor. It was kind of the dream job as close to a fighter
pilot as you could get, but sit at a computer.
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It was computer network attack before we really talked about it
dream gig. But then I had an option through some friends to
interview at a place called Microsoft, and so who says no to that?
So I interviewed at Microsoft and ended up, you know, taking that
option instead of the Dream gig. Just because I thought there'd be
more opportunities, I'd learn a lot more.
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And that's exactly how it turned out. I met a lot of great people.
Microsoft, one of them is on this call, on this podcast today, and
I spent a decade and a half there now media liability for seven
years securing the video game company, probably one of the craziest
forms of entertainment that exist in the world is video games.
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It's massive. Anywhere you have huge value, you had a lot of
attackers trying to get at that value. So we definitely have a very
important mission as far as it goes. And we take the ability of
getting people a chance to play very serious, like life is serious,
you got to have outlets. So we take our job very, very
seriously.
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So so, you know, Microsoft, we got the truth out now, like
Microsoft was not a dream gig, Right. You know, so the truth is
finally came out and really the dream gig is that you can play, you
know, games all day on your Xbox. That's that's what you're saying
for everybody. Yeah. You know, the the young 20 year old Mike Reed,
he had real mature plans.
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Luckily, the world took care and gave me better plans, took care of
me, gave me a better plan. So now there's there's little brief
vision of like, hey, you know what? Who says no to Microsoft? And
getting that chance was pretty eye opening. I just never saw it
coming. Yeah, I imagine it's just one of those things David's
talked about in the past of some.
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Sometimes, you know, your plan, your focus, your intentions not
derailed, but you know, you get distracted or something else draws
your attention to it and then you make a choice. So when when you
were offered that choice, how excited were you and what were you
thinking about? Now that wasn't necessarily in your primary plan,
but now, now you have a chance.
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Now you have an opportunity. Absolutely torn. I was really torn.
Like I said, the gig that I had lined up at this government
contractor, small firm, if I said the name, it wouldn't mean
anything. But I'm sure I'm supposed to say it because they got
acquired. But I had friends that had that I had followed through my
Air Force career that had joined that group.
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And it was all gravy, like everything was set up great and I had
signed. And so there was a relationship there and I had committed.
And there's a bit about this integrity and like, I just wasn't sure
what to do. And then I get this thing from Microsoft that I
remember I went to my parents, right, Because this is I'm still
pretty young and I just take a week to think and I really kind of
laid it out and I said, Well, what I think this company is going to
be okay if I say no, and I will just talk to them honestly about
what happens to you if I say no.
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Because if I hurt you, I don't want to hurt you because it was a
small contractor and then too, I looked at it and I said, There's
kind of two principles that have guided my career. And one was,
Where do I think what choice is going to give me the most options
in life? Because the one thing I knew about, like myself in the
world was change is constant.
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So the more options I have, the more opportunities I'm leaving
open, the better I will probably be. And number two is where do I
think I'm going to be the most helpful? And the story I had gotten
from Microsoft and what they needed, they really needed help. Like
this was the crisis in the early 2000 where Microsoft Security was,
you know, kind of under the gun and this government contract like
they had tons of great people.
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Like I was probably one of the least skilled, you know, honestly
going there. I was basically getting offered the job because they
really liked me. It was relationship. So where was I going to be
the most helpful? What was going to give me the most options and
opportunities alive? And that guided my decision. Well, I think
that comes into the topic always.
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We talk about it many times on the podcast is about, you know, the
networks and connections, Right? You know, is that the most
important thing for, you know, veterans that are working to make a
transition or to kind of make a move, you know, in their career?
You know, has that changed in the past 20 years since you and I
joined now?
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I think I think the network, you know, the connections are really
important. And I've always viewed myself as really poor at
networking. But then if I look back at my career, networking has
done everything for me. Like even the job at Microsoft that they
got sat in front of me was because I had gone to Blackhat Def Con
Solo in the Air Force because we weren't sending people there yet
in the early 2000s.
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And I stood out to a guy and when we started talking, he realized I
was prior. I was active Air Force and his dad was prior Navy and he
got to the Naval Academy. So that was the bond. That guy ended up
getting me the interview a microsoft. He wasn't working at
Microsoft, but he knew the people and he ended up speaking at a
conference in Seattle.
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I joined him as Black Hat Seattle back when they had it. I had no
money, right like as a and some usually used leave. I think, or
stuff like that. But I end up like doing the videotaping for Black
Hat. That's how I got a free ticket. I slept on the floor of his
hotel room because he was speaking at it.
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And that's when a microsoft recruiter overheard me talking when we
were getting bagels about me getting out of the Air Force. And I
had a job lined up at DC. And she said, Well, we're hiring. Why
don't you give me your resume and just that thing over bagels. And
I went right upstairs and sent my resume to her.
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And I remember she told me later, like she was really impressed
with how quick I responded, but that's how it happened. So it was
networking on both sides, right? So I think that's always been
important. And I actually think the best networking I've done is
kind of genuine, like people that I like, that I enjoy talking to
it ends up flowing, but I have to I have to be conscious about
it.
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Otherwise, you know, I'm very comfortable, right? I could sit on my
couch all day, look at my shoes, have a shoe collection. I could
just look at my shoes. Right. And I'm not going to really meet
people. So I think it's important to keep those networks alive if
you. So he weaved it in there. So I'm going to capitalize on this
that you can't see it.
00;12;01;27 - 00;12;27;28
But behind him, I don't know who four, six, eight 2020 pairs about
behind him on display colors the whole nine. It's really beautiful
actually if you're loving it. So so thanks for that. So the
question might then you know because it is tough choice and your
two priorities that you're looking at is, you know, the options you
know, the most options for you and then where are you going to be
the most helpful and how you assessed it.
00;12;27;28 - 00;12;47;08
I mean, that that's not very typical today where it sounds like the
depth that what you were looking at is how many people were in the
contracting organization. And then did that. Was that the
significant influence of saying, well, that lessens the the kind of
the decision making process for me to know that they're going to be
taken care of.
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I'm going to go over here and and create a new path going my
perception that was that I mean, I knew they would be I'd actually
had a very open conversation with the person who was in charge of
the company, the person that recruited me. And, you know, they were
they were okay. And that was a big part.
00;13;02;16 - 00;13;17;04
Like if they had said, hey, this is tough, we were really betting
on you. We have, you know, you know, because you know how
government contracts were like, sometimes they actually booked work
based off of the credentials of the people on the bench. And they
had said that I think I would have changed my mind, but they were
just like that were good.
00;13;17;06 - 00;13;34;29
And then I'll tell you what, like that relationship stayed alive
and they ended up working together on some stuff that was not being
very helpful for everybody. So I just say like it was done in a
way, in such a way that like I was still and still to this day
friendly and friends with some of the folks that were part of that
group.
00;13;34;29 - 00;13;50;13
And that group is kind of moved on. So yeah, like I think that's a
great point is element is like there's an element, as we all know,
don't burn bridges of the past and things like that. But also I
think is that sometimes maintaining those connections and you know,
helping out of you never know that hey, you could help them.
00;13;50;13 - 00;14;04;04
You may have met the right person or you need make a change, but
you can you can repay or, you know, kind of reciprocate back to
them. And I think that's maintaining those network is a very, very
important because you never know you could be one year from now,
maybe not for ourselves, but one year is now a five year turn
out.
00;14;04;04 - 00;14;23;00
You come across a man, wow. Because of what you paid there, they're
there to help you when you need it. That is exactly how it played
out. As they needed something down the road. You never would've
seen it coming. But it was all done with integrity. It was all done
with mutual respect and just open transparency. And as a result,
like when it up doing a lot of things together over the years.
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Yeah, that's the sorry David said. And I just want to touch on it
because when we're talking about the topics that were seemingly
just kind of naturally going into is like transition. It's a
decision making level, the loyalty of what I had, how do I maintain
that? And now when I'm struggling with feeling like I'm not being
loyal to this and then I'm trying to go out and do something
different, that feeling, that angst, that that uncertainty as to
what's going to be the impact it sounds like it turned out.
00;14;51;10 - 00;15;10;01
And that's what I think, you know, for me, I just want to make sure
anybody listening is clear on is you can still have that integrity
and the loyalty and how you do those things to preserve that. If
you just imagine down the line, it's a small world. And I know
David's talked about this before, not only veteran community, but
also the security communities.
00;15;10;01 - 00;15;29;20
Very small in a sense. Right. So the relationship component, I
think was key. And you kind of just played that card well, Yeah, I
think I think it played out the you know, looking back as best I
could have ever hoped for, you know, Mike eventually, like, you
know, you know, and Chris, just talk about loyalty like Air Force,
right?
00;15;29;21 - 00;15;49;11
You know, your family's Air Force. And you mentioned Navy. You
would actually Air Force people. You would actually work for
another service. What where did I hear that before it? Yeah, it is.
You know, I've met a few Navy people that I can actually really
respect and get along with. Now, tell us about them someday, but
we'll go on to that.
00;15;49;13 - 00;16;08;25
But there's been there's an element of, you know, the service is
that, you know, it's not just we're all veterans, right? We're all
together. Right. And I think that's a connection I think many
people don't make sometimes. Is that is that even though we know
the Marines are very Marines, but like, hey, we're all together,
all you have a common mission.
00;16;08;25 - 00;16;25;23
We think of things like the Gulf War or major conflicts like we're
all in together. It doesn't matter what service we are. And I think
it's you know, from a network perspective, I think people keep
their eyes open and much broader. Yeah, I think it's kind of like
sibling rivalry, right? Like, you know, sibling siblings pick on
each other because they're bonded because they care about each
other.
00;16;25;23 - 00;16;44;02
They can do it. And people see it from the outside to like, what
the heck's going on? Like, you guys hate each other, like, now,
like we're here in it together, you know? And that's that's why we
can do that. Yep. Yes. So, so now you've made the choice and you're
obviously looking back now. It was it was a good choice.
00;16;44;03 - 00;17;11;13
It turned out that, you know, there was some connections later down
the line. What's happened since then that you felt probably were
aren't the things were unexpected or, you know, where you were
introduced to things to where there were some contributing factors
of how you made your decision, like the awareness or just kind of
the knowing yourself? Well, just to explain a little bit on how
things progressed since making that choice.
00;17;11;17 - 00;17;25;12
Yeah, I mean, I'll tell you, when I when I made the choice to join
up with Microsoft, part of what I had been doing in the military
and, you know, you get a you get a lot of this as a young officer,
you get a lot of this at the at the Air Force, any service academy.
Like I love it.
00;17;25;19 - 00;17;43;17
So when I say something negative, please understand this is
totally, totally backed by so much positive. But when you join the
Air Force Academy or any military academy, I think they tell you
like you're the best of the best, you're the cream of the crop.
You're going to be the future leaders of the world, the like. You
really get a lot of a lot of talk that you're awesome, right?
00;17;43;19 - 00;18;00;25
And I think part of me started to realize there wasn't much
separating me from all the people that I knew that did not go to
the service academy. And that started becoming immediately apparent
when I got on active duty and I started seeing like the
noncommissioned officers that were just amazing and I was like, why
do they, you know, teach us that?
00;18;00;25 - 00;18;17;24
They did teach us a lot more, but I just remember that. So I do
remember like when I had when I had finally decided to leave the
military, which was a tough choice. But what I finally decided to
leave the military. I wanted to take a position where I wasn't
going to be a leader. I wanted to be an individual contributor.
00;18;17;26 - 00;18;37;20
I just wanted to work like I think I had just been. I was tired of
I had been taught leadership principles since I was 17, you know,
And I and I my first year at Microsoft, I was working in this group
where we dealt with all the vulnerabilities coming in to Microsoft
for all of Microsoft's products and the way the team was set
up.
00;18;37;20 - 00;19;10;16
You had program managers who helped manage the relationship with
all the hackers that were finding the vulnerabilities with all the
product teams at Microsoft that maybe had like Internet Explorer
Windows, they needed to fix the vulnerabilities and then we had
this team that was the the deep technical team that understood the
vulnerabilities. And to make a very long story short, after about
six months at Microsoft, I realized I was never going to be as good
as these tech guys, these deep, deep tech guys that like folks like
there's a gentleman named David Ross who passed recently, like just
so smart, the best in the world at what they were doing.
00;19;10;16 - 00;19;26;25
I'm like, I'm never going to be that good. Like, I could try. I
might get 90% of the way there, but it took me ten times the effort
than it would be for me to actually be a people leader and manage
people and motivate people like that I could do would be a lot more
helpful to the organization and what I wanted to do.
00;19;26;25 - 00;19;40;21
So I think that was one of the first points where I was like, What
I want and what I can do to be helpful maybe aren't the same thing
at that level of maturity. That kind of hit me. I think it was just
it was the caliber of the people that let me realize that. And I
think that was one of these other kind of forks in the road.
00;19;40;21 - 00;20;01;23
For me, it's like really what I want and what I what I am best at
or what I can be the most helpful doing may not be the same thing.
Yeah. And so I was thinking that now when you said that the people
that you're surrounded by, so I'm guessing then it naturally puts
you in positions in the environment where most of the people are,
because I don't know.
00;20;01;23 - 00;20;17;10
And you can tell us most of the people around you were very
supportive in allowing you to kind of find your way. Is that right?
And I just I think I think where that comes in to like being
veterans and stuff is like, yeah, people were supportive and helped
me find my way. But the other thing is they started recognizing the
stuff that I was taught and how it was helpful to the
organization.
00;20;17;13 - 00;20;37;07
And so like, I don't know, you know, if this is going to be
universally true, but I'd say it's probably true for the majority
of us in the military. We learn a lot. We learn a lot about working
as a team, accomplishing a mission, staying motivated, staying
focused, working through distractions and keeping on on target.
Like we learn a lot.
00;20;37;07 - 00;21;01;06
Like you don't get that everywhere. So this gentleman that I
mentioned who was like the best in the world at this technical
capability, like he learned a lot, right? But what we learn and
it's not something everybody gets like this person didn't learn all
that. We get that in the military and that can if you can align
that to the organizational needs, that can really accelerate not
just your career, but it can it can accelerate what the
organization is trying to do.
00;21;01;06 - 00;21;18;25
So I think that's one part of what it was for me. It was like, you
know, I had like eight years of leadership training and here I was
trying to do, I don't know, like five years of assembly, reverse
engineering, you know, in my spare time. So I could do this. One
thing I wanted to do as a non leader like that doesn't make any
sense.
00;21;18;25 - 00;21;35;27
Like we were I was given this. I was given this experience and this
training. I should use it for the best effect. So I think, Michael,
you raise a great point of, you know, leadership and things and
many companies, right. You know, that of hey, they may have some
gaps, they may have some needs and often, often sometimes they may
make change.
00;21;35;27 - 00;21;51;19
And I think this is where military veterans are often and can be
the best change agents because A, they like you can say, here's the
mission, here's the challenges, Right. You know, here's what we
need you to do. Right. And, you know, the veterans really know how
to operate that say, and they may need to learn something as part
of it and say operate, make it happen.
00;21;51;19 - 00;22;11;24
Right. And be that voice. Be that that catalyst and things like
that. And often when change is needed, veterans can be some of the
best choices in bringing into your leadership team. Absolutely. I
mean, just take it to the core. What the military is compared to
what you do in the private sector at like just one of the
fundamental truth about being active duty in the military, you're
probably going to move every 2 to 3 years.
00;22;11;27 - 00;22;34;18
You're probably going to change some sort of career, something
every 2 to 3 years. Like you don't have that kind of change baked
into private sector tech roles. And we deal with that just on the
norm. Well, die bomber in new team, new mission, go figure it out.
Get it done like we just that's part of our bread and butter And so
like you think about what you want to do to take an organizational
change at a private company like a veteran's going to understand
how to work through change.
00;22;34;18 - 00;22;52;03
They've been doing it their whole career every few years. Now.
Building on that, though, I would say the other point let's sort of
take the converse of things is what is the biggest challenge you
think veterans is like, Hey, they could be leaders, they can adapt
to change, but what's the biggest element you've seen in your
experience when hiring or bringing your sons in?
00;22;52;03 - 00;23;13;02
They've transitioning. That is the largest gap or change that they
need to make to adapt to the civilian world. Yeah, I mean, this is
such this is such a good question. This is such a good question.
And I think it kind of varies between where folks are coming in
from, like somebody that's coming in with five years versus
somebody is coming in with 25 years.
00;23;13;05 - 00;23;35;11
Right. It's different. You know, one thing that's the same is you
need to learn the culture of the organization right away. Does it
matter if five years, 25 years, you need to understand the culture,
You need to find mentors that can help you understand the culture.
You probably need to find more than one mentor so you can bounce,
cross cross views and triangulate to build your own truth around
the culture of an organization.
00;23;35;11 - 00;24;09;02
How the wheel really moves In an organization like 525 years. You
got to learn that because it's not going to be the same one that
you came from. I don't care what company you're joining unless it's
you're going right back into the military. It's going to be
different. So he got to learn that. But I'd say, like the folks
joining with 20 years, you know, long, historic like great career,
like coming in as a leader, one of the things I've seen that has
been disappointing and just like I wish you could go different is
folks come in with this background in leadership and they think
their leadership is going to just naturally push them forward,
00;24;09;05 - 00;24;24;22
that it's going to be recognized and immediately appreciated
because of what they did in service to the country. And
unfortunately, that's not true. These most companies, they're just
meritocracy. So it's going to be. What did you do for me lately?
What have you gotten done? What impact have you had? And your
credentials aren't going to get you anywhere.
00;24;24;25 - 00;24;42;26
Where your credentials are going to come into play is how you're
able to leverage those for impact in the organization or the
timeframe that you're there. And I think that's just hard because
you come in with a service, this historic career and it's just it
bring it built helps you build a network immediately and make
connections immediately. But it's not going to get the job
done.
00;24;42;26 - 00;25;00;14
You're not going to get a great end of year review because of what
you did for 20 years in the military. So, Mike, you're saying that
just because you're wearing the academy ring, I don't have to bow
down and kiss it? Is that what you're saying? Yeah. I thought for
sure that was going to happen. I, I end up not wearing the rate
because nobody seemed to care.
00;25;00;17 - 00;25;20;07
I was lied to all those years. So there's one. I'm going back to
the dad jokes because you said, you know, multiple mentors to get
cross views. David We're not talking about David Cross views just
so we're clear. But I'm from who? I'm here all week. All right. So
the meritocracy, right? So and I think you just landed on
something, you know what?
00;25;20;07 - 00;25;44;12
What I feel is expected. What I feel is earned, how I feel about
how I'm supposed to be treated. You know, we use the ring as a
symbol, you know, an academy grad. But it's basically any any any
role to wear even during the academy said, you know, basically
you're awesome coming from a workplace situation if you've never
even served where you've been told, you're awesome.
00;25;44;12 - 00;26;11;02
You know, we're talking about competency driven evaluations,
performance reviews and things like that. To wear hard
conversations to help guide people correctly where you're giving
them information that is contradictory to how they feel. And
David's been a big proponent of this. You know, feedback has the
sting and the good ones actually know how to deliver it. Tell us
about one experience that burst your bubble, if you will.
00;26;11;06 - 00;26;28;01
my God. Yeah. I mean, an experience. It wasn't it wasn't me per
say. I mean, I can give you an experience about me, but that was,
you know, I was coming in with five years, but some of that came up
with like 20 something years. There was this six and I helped
recruit and vote organization. I just thought they walked on water
like I didn't work with them when I was active duty, but I saw how
they showed up.
00;26;28;01 - 00;26;45;20
I knew a bit about their career or they ended up being the
commander of a group that I was attached to as a reservist because
I did the reserves for a couple of years, active after active duty.
So they were also I mean, I knew what impact they had. The
military, they joined, they failed horribly. And I had my
fingerprints like I recruited them.
00;26;45;20 - 00;27;09;02
I sold I sold him to people like he joined into this in this role.
And, you know, he just never really adapted to the culture. And,
you know, I could tell that after a tenured career that got him to
Oecs, he thought like rank had its privileges. And what he said
would go like really getting people on board when there was no
formal authority per se.
00;27;09;02 - 00;27;28;20
I was not especially cross organizationally was not a skill set
they had developed and not a skill set that it looked like they
really wanted to develop. And so that really burst my bubble.
That's when I that's when when you said when you when you ask the
question and I kind of just like you can't say it on the podcast,
but like, I'm just grabbing my forehead is because that was the one
that really hurt.
00;27;28;22 - 00;27;54;28
Yeah, because it hit me that like what got them there did not help
them here at the time. And they really and I felt like if this ever
happens to me again, you never, ever know anybody coming in from
the military after a long career into a very senior role into a
private organization like a tech company. I want to grab them and
just be like, okay, here's the crash course and what you got to let
go of what you're getting yourself into, you know, before they
join.
00;27;55;00 - 00;28;10;17
Well, I think that always comes in. I think maybe the biggest
mistake for some is that with putting aside all that things of the
elite ism and all that, that's like you got to have a great mentor
and peer mentor that's really going to give you the here's the hard
to heart is like, this is not a mission that you've ever expected
before.
00;28;10;19 - 00;28;31;26
And if you're not ready to take this on in understanding this,
you're going to fail. You know, the mission is going to fail. Yeah.
And like Chris said, I love what you say, David. You know,
feedback, good feedback, important, critical feedback has to sting.
You have to deliver words really hard. And I think a mentor like
that in the context of a manager, an employee, of course that
matters.
00;28;31;26 - 00;28;46;26
But as a mentor it really matters too, because you need a mentor
that can really bust through that so you can feel it. I remember,
you know, going into Service Academy, they had me meet up with this
guy before I decided to join is like, I think he was like an
insurance salesman who had graduated at some point in his life.
00;28;46;26 - 00;29;10;22
And he told me about how miserable life was at the academy, just
how bad it was, how horrible, how he woke up with a in a hole in
his gut every day. And I needed that because I still said yes, like
I knew what I was getting into. Right. And I think being able to
deliver that kind of message is something that you do in the
military because you because you got to weed people out earlier,
they're going to hurt the people around them, you know?
00;29;10;24 - 00;29;31;14
So I think it's important to be able to communicate that. Yeah. No.
And you landed on something that's that's common today, no matter
where the candidate comes from, is commitment, understanding,
commitment and what that means. And I think what I heard and what
you just said is you got something from somebody that potentially
could potentially be perceived as negative.
00;29;31;14 - 00;29;55;13
It's you're giving me a negative experience, but that's X, Y, and
whatever. But you looked at is like, well, it's real and I'm going
to use it. And that just reinforced your commitment to make the
decision. Talk about commitment. You know what what are some of the
key factors that contribute to us getting past some of those things
that we create on our own that prevents us from making the right
decision?
00;29;55;16 - 00;30;14;26
Yeah, I mean, I think I think one is we're kind of grown with that.
No, we're not. We're not going to let the mission fail attitude and
a lot of ways. So whether that's a personal mission or an
organizational mission, I think that's part of what we get as a
indoctrination through our time in a in a in a military career as
veterans.
00;30;14;28 - 00;30;34;17
And so like whether that is we're not going let the mission fail at
this. You know, we're kind of in the to use another services term
because we don't have this term in the Air Force that you're kind
of in the sack. You just kind of grunt through it. Like I remember
first a few years of my time in Microsoft, like I was basically my
career was doing well because I was the last man standing.
00;30;34;20 - 00;31;01;13
It was just too hard for a lot of people. And I just had the
resilience and the commitment and maybe I was too dumb to quit,
right? But I just kept pushing through it. That's part of
commitment. The other part of commitment is being willing as as
David said, to embrace a change and to make a change when when it's
early enough, where the change will save the mission and not so
late that everybody sees the need, because when it's so late that
everybody sees the need, it's usually too late.
00;31;01;13 - 00;31;26;24
But it's easier as a leader to get people on board. But when you
see the change before the pain is really there, you have to
communicate that change. And people may not believe in the Y yet
you have to like bring them along and that's hard and that there's
commitment involved in doing that. So that I love this part because
it wraps a lot of what you've already talked about, our experience
conditioned mindset.
00;31;27;00 - 00;31;54;12
We're instructed, trained and brought to believe on how we can
influence outcomes, whether it's change, whether it's I recognize
situational awareness, I'm observant, I'm connected to something
where I can see it. So let's talk about that piece real quick. When
you have somebody coming in, no matter where they come from and you
can talk about the veterans, they see things faster, like we see
the organizational structure, we see the culture, and we kind of
just say, I've seen this movie before.
00;31;54;14 - 00;32;15;05
I already have the answer in my head. Talk about what you just said
as far as like leading change and how sometimes people aren't ready
to hear it until sometimes it's too late and then then it's easy.
But when you're that person that sees it early, what are some of
the behavioral components that are gotchas on how we now deliver
what we see?
00;32;15;08 - 00;32;32;18
That's really good. That's a really good question. You know,
there's a there's this dance. Remember the Nokia burning platform
memo that went out and Nokia, the telephone company, the the right.
David, do you remember this? Yes. have. And it was becoming pretty
clear that Nokia was losing market share, even though they had been
the dominant phone maker.
00;32;32;18 - 00;32;50;21
I mean, who who you know, if you're around our age, like you had
the phone, you played snake, everybody did. Right. The candy bar,
Nokia phone. And after the iPhone, you know, an Android, it became
pretty clear Nokia wasn't going to make it. And and they did a
burning platform memo. It's public it's kind of famous and like
basically saying, hey, we've got we're on a burning platform.
00;32;50;21 - 00;33;06;24
We have to make massive change. I use that as an example of
courageous communication, but also probably a little too late.
Right. And so like at that point, it was pretty easy to communicate
the difference. I'm sure there was a percentage of the population
that Nokia felt like everything was going to be okay. Still, at
that point in time.
00;33;06;26 - 00;33;20;00
So there are some people that needed the memo, but there was a lot
of people and a lot of folks in the market like, hey, they got to
make a change. They're not going to make it. So that's kind of a
too late thing when you see a change before that, before that,
before that pain and you need to communicate it.
00;33;20;02 - 00;33;46;01
One of the big trappings is that people get it. It's the hubris,
right? It's just like everybody sees it, everybody knows it. And so
when I communicate, it's going to be no big deal. That's a
trapping, because what you're going to have is either going to have
to use because I said so type language when people push back or
you're going to end up having to fight against other parts of the
organization, whether inside or outside, that to get them to
embrace the change.
00;33;46;04 - 00;34;06;00
And you may never make it finished, you may never finish the
change, you may never make it complete fully. It may be so long
that you shouldn't have done it in the first place. Could be the
worst of all situations. So what it really requires is the ability
to bring people on board and communicate a vision and a need and
kind of make them feel it as their own.
00;34;06;02 - 00;34;25;27
What was the is it was it a patent quote, general patent quote that
said, you know, never roughly like never tell people what to do.
Just tell them what's needed. Let them surprise you with the
ingenuity. Like you have to give an up autonomy to the people
underneath you. We're like, we have this need for change. And maybe
they actually know the steps you want to follow in sequence to make
that change happen.
00;34;25;29 - 00;34;40;05
But the way that you can actually get that change to land is people
make it their own and just sort of point and you can watch and you
can guide, especially if you know where it needs to go and. That
and that I think is a real skill and you have to have that. I mean,
the quote I just gave is from a general in the military.
00;34;40;05 - 00;34;53;23
It's something we learn in the military is how to get people on
board with the mission and make them feel embrace it as their own.
Yeah, I think that's a great story and things like that. And I
think back to my time. It's about resilience, it's about focus.
It's also being patient as well and not giving up as well.
00;34;54;00 - 00;35;10;22
You know, I can go back a long time ago like, you know, the Windows
XP timeframe and I own the encrypting file system. I wrote this 100
page spec that when you should have full disk encryption, I won't
mention names. They said the meeting ended after like 15 minutes.
Like we're never going to do this. No one's ever going to pay for
this.
00;35;10;27 - 00;35;27;06
Well, what do we do a few years later? we have bitlocker, right? So
but like, you know, what Bob Muglia told me is like, you know,
before in a different story, it's like it's like, hey, sometimes
when you get set back, you don't just quit and walk away. You st
patient resilience, right? Stick with it right in the time will
come.
00;35;27;09 - 00;36;00;06
Yeah. No, I think that is such a good point. Patience.
Organizational patience is a is a learned skill to. I don't think
it's something that you're just born with. And I have seen and
they've probably seen this too. I have seen what you call them in
the Air Force fast burners like folks that are just, you know,
amazing impact driven people that can get so much done, just not
eight, not able to have the organizational patience and they burn
out or they get frustrated or they cause drama.
00;36;00;09 - 00;36;20;12
And and if you can have that organizational patience because there
is there's another truth sort of in the market, in the business
world, the nonmilitary. Well, I'm sure there's an allegory in the
military as well. But like sometimes you have the right idea too
soon. The market's not ready. So having the patience to recognize
that you can see the opportunities when to slide that and that's
good business.
00;36;20;15 - 00;36;36;13
And it's kind of core to what success looks like. I mean, Microsoft
had the tablets. Yeah, I joined in the early 2000, so. Right. You
know, and right idea, probably not the right time for the market.
Like people had to get used to playing on glass first which
happened with the iPhone because they wanted their music with them
wherever they go.
00;36;36;15 - 00;36;55;07
Once they got used to playing on glass, you could have an iPad,
right? And it was a lot more streamlined and having to have a
tablet that could spin around and also have a keyboard because
people were already comfortable with glass. Like, I don't if that's
exactly the way it plays out. But that's that's my interpretation
of the way the market worked, even though, you know, Microsoft had
some pretty amazing tablet computers in the early 2000s.
00;36;55;10 - 00;37;19;22
Yeah, we had the Zune, which I still use, you know, at my desk. You
know, you can see it because that's audio, but I still have the
Zune. I still run with it, you know, every day. So I know I now
know two people that use the Zune, David Cross and Star-Lord from
Guardians of the Galaxy. Yes. But you know, it might going back to
a little bit about, you know, the fast burners, like it's, you
know, the civilian world, like it's the Ferraris, right?
00;37;19;22 - 00;37;44;24
You're going to have Ferraris in the team. And it is a management
leadership. Right. How you got to put the guardrails on the road.
Otherwise, you know, you know what's getting jog your gaming
language, right? You got a you the open map right at the games
while you run all over, right? You know. Yeah. What you know how do
how do people you know that are the fast burners of the military
survive in a, you know, a slow moving corporate world.
00;37;44;26 - 00;38;01;09
Yeah. No, that's that's a that's a great question. And I love the
kind of the analogy there. Right. So you've got one hand, you have
Ferraris, but maybe need like some sort of like tank, like a like a
like a g-wagon. They can really just push through all the muck and
get things done. And how can you make one the other?
00;38;01;12 - 00;38;20;03
And I think actually, as a leader, like you can recognize the
opportunities that are kind of paved. Like there are things where
like the mission, the organization, the culture all lines up, but
you can just run and get things done. And maybe it's not the
biggest impactful thing, but it lets the Ferrari run and they
sometimes just need to do that for the engine and for that talent
just to stay happy.
00;38;20;05 - 00;38;34;01
So you find those, you let them run, but then you kind of use that
to say, Now we have another tough gig coming up and that's kind of
where you can teach them how to be a little bit more resilient to
be that G-wagon that can just plow through the mud and get
something done and pull out with it.
00;38;34;03 - 00;38;59;22
Now, maybe someday we'll meet some people that have Ferraris and
G-wagon back. See if this analogy plays out in the real world, but
bring it and put it in the mud, specifically the job crafting. So
as you as you're speaking and I'm thinking about, there's a ton of
Ferraris and there's a ton of kit cars that have the body of a
Ferrari, but the insides maybe, I don't know, red flier, I don't
know, something like that.
00;38;59;22 - 00;39;16;13
Right. So it's not quite made or built to sustain what their what
their perception is creating for them to think that they can do
these things that fast this way. And that's common. So you just
kind of smash some things together. You know, you talked about how
veterans, you know, are used to moving around a lot, 2 to 3
years.
00;39;16;13 - 00;39;40;27
If you take that in the private sector, it's like, well, your job
hopping. That's how I consider success. It's what the job asks me
to do. And I get promoted by take and duty stations and roles and
things like that. So there's this interpretive translation that
sometimes occurs for those that are smart about how to talk to
others and learn more about what they do and how their change is
apparent on, on, on paper.
00;39;41;00 - 00;40;20;06
But when it comes to now, having somebody where you understand what
their ambitions are and how they're dialed in their capable of
doing things, but you see that they're going to get impatient. Have
you have you what are your thoughts on now creating that that that
role of responsibility from other needs and kind of merging in some
things to help pacify the ambition of somebody to where you're
creating things that don't necessarily in the original job
description, You know, you're actually making me think of another
sort of truism that was hard for me to wrap my head around when you
say that, which was sometimes you got to be okay letting talent go
because it's
00;40;20;06 - 00;40;38;29
the best thing for them and the organization, even if they're
amazing and like we are driven as leaders in general to not have
negative attrition. You never want a good person to leave. And that
kind of works against us. But I will say there are times, Chris,
that you cannot do what you said where there there they are.
00;40;38;29 - 00;40;56;24
They are not going to be happy in role where they are. And I will
say that, you know, especially in cybersecurity, I'm sure we don't
have a monopoly on this, but especially in cybersecurity, when
somebody takes a role at a different company, they're not dead. To
us, that network is still there. And we talked about that at the
beginning.
00;40;56;28 - 00;41;14;18
If you if you help them, I have actually helped myself. I've helped
lose talent is I could tell it was the right thing and it was hard
because it was going to cause more work for me. Right. So that's
one thing I will just say is and then usually like we were talking
about earlier, it will come full circle.
00;41;14;20 - 00;41;32;15
And if you have any kind of career, you're going to end up helping
each other out again down the road. You know, Spirit is kind of
interesting because we actually have bad guys just kind of like we
have the military. And so if you really think about it, regardless
of the company, in a lot of ways, we are all fighting the common
enemy, which are the bad guys.
00;41;32;15 - 00;41;45;23
And so if you think about it that way, it kind of helps me wrap my
head around what I just said. But I will also say that there are
times where I've had some of my best director reports have really
challenged me and they've really made me think about like, am I
self-limiting in our mission? What else could we be doing?
00;41;45;24 - 00;42;06;21
Is there another part of the organization that's failing that we
can help out in and this person really good at it? So to your
point, Chris, about how do you create opportunities for somebody? A
lot of times you look at where the where the business need is, like
the the the biggest mistakes I made is when I tried to create
something for somebody and it wasn't aligned with a business need
because corporations are made of people, but they're not
people.
00;42;06;23 - 00;42;25;00
Corporations are not people. They're not going to be nice. They
have to survive. They have shareholders. You know, they're public.
So as a result, like, you cannot get crossways is from what the
business needs in the name of trying to get somebody is career
ahead, you know. And if you do like maybe you'll get away with it
for a little while because there is some slack in there.
00;42;25;00 - 00;42;44;21
You know, you never know. Nothing's it's not a perfect system.
There are some friction and some lost. And so there's areas for
people to do work inside the system that may not be perfectly
aligned with the business and help them grow some skills right
there, some room for that. But I will say like if you really try to
create a you call a job crafting a role for a fast burner who's,
you know, growing outside of their role.
00;42;44;21 - 00;43;00;17
But you think there is a need like tied to the business need that's
going to if you don't, that's going to be bad for them and bad for
you dog track and and that and that was good. You caught me on that
one because that's a good that's a great response is is because a
lot of people are fearful of the patriot.
00;43;00;17 - 00;43;20;20
Right. It's that asterisk on them. You know you had X percent a
trip in this timeframe. I'm you know, are you a good leader? Are
you effective leader? And the reality is the micro perspective is
well for the greater good, this person's maybe my business, but the
industry could use this person somewhere else. And you just I kind
of alluded to it.
00;43;20;20 - 00;43;41;04
You know, you're thinking big, big picture for security. This
person could be a great fit somewhere else and still contribute to
the greater good of the industry itself. Yeah. So business goals in
my mind translates into industry specific things, which is and I
will say like we still work for a company. So like if you've looked
around and there truly isn't a business need that fits that
person's role than yeah, then that's an option.
00;43;41;06 - 00;43;58;04
But where I would make a mistake would be if there was a business,
see where this talent could be really helpful and I let them go. I
probably made a mistake. So really it goes all back to the business
and how they align the business to the person. Well, there's the
other element. I think as we all run into sometimes is that every
company is not going to grow in size increasing.