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Nov 7, 2023

We don’t need to know what’s going on 100% of the time, but 100% of the time we need to know what’s going on. Why and when do we let others know about what we’re doing?
In this episode we talk about VISIBILITY and why this topic is important for many people in advancing their careers, being recognized for great impact and performance and also, quite possibly even more importantly, to ensure you are focusing on the right priorities and initiatives.
You should expect that not everyone will be able to recognize or see your value unless you have intentionally put yourself out there to be the one people think of when needing help!
We have all we need to become the person we want to be…let’s remember how to connect with others with sincerity and genuine intent as we continue the mission to serve.
Episode Transcript:

00;00;08;00 - 00;00;28;11
You're listening to the Oracle Maven podcast, where we bring people together from the veteran affiliated community to highlight employees, partners, organized actions, and those who are continuing the mission to serve. Welcome to the Maiden podcast. I'm your host, Chris Spencer, and in this episode I'm joined by our co-host David Cross, senior vice president and SAS Chief Information Security Officer within Oracle.

00;00;28;15 - 00;00;58;22
We don't need to know what's going on 100% of the time, but 100% of the time we need to know what's going on. Why and when do we let others know about what we're doing? In this episode, we're talking visibility and why this topic is important for many people in advancing their careers, being recognized for great impact and performance, and also quite possibly even more importantly, to ensure you're focusing on the right priorities and initiatives, you should expect that not everyone will be able to recognize or see your value unless you have intentionally put yourself out there to be the one they think of when they need help.

00;00;58;25 - 00;01;17;23
Listen in as we discuss how to be consistent, lead by example, and drive change with both yourself and your organization. We have all we need to become the person we want to be. So let's remember how to connect with others with sincerity and genuine intent as we continue the mission to serve. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy this episode and please remember to check in on your buddies and family.

00;01;17;24 - 00;01;26;28
David's contact details are in the podcast description and you can always find me on LinkedIn David, good morning.

00;01;27;20 - 00;01;38;04
Morning, Chris. I am so excited to get talking on this topic. Right. And is really making this stand out to everybody because it's about visibility.

00;01;39;01 - 00;01;56;28
Visibility, how to be seen. How do you want to be seen how do you not want to be seen? That's a good one. So this is coming off the heels of our last one where we were talking about networking, and I think close to that was relationship and this one's visibility. So what do you got, David?

00;01;58;04 - 00;02;19;20
You know, Chris, I think there is a lot of people run into this challenge is that you're working your tail off, you're working 80 hours a week. You know, you're getting all these things done, you're closing all these deals, you're delivering all these results. Yet No one, you're not getting rewarded for it. You're not being recognized for it. You're you feel like you're not being compensated for it.

00;02;20;01 - 00;02;26;09
Well, sometimes the root cause of this is you have no visibility. No one knows what in the world you're doing.

00;02;27;27 - 00;02;51;08
That's a fact. I mean, those are the things that you really need to understand as far as why you're doing. It's one thing. Well, first of all, nobody should be doing 80 hours a week, but you got it. Context extra effort, putting in time. What you need to understand is where you're putting the time and how it's driving impact to the greater good, to the business, to the organization.

00;02;51;08 - 00;03;07;04
To the team or what have you. And then making sure that not only do people know about it for updates and the relevance of how it ties back into those goals, those organizational goals. But more importantly, from an individual perspective, how do you acknowledge your performance and how you're contributing?

00;03;08;06 - 00;03;35;19
Absolutely. You know, I think as you think about how many companies like Oracle or Google and many others be used in OKRs, you know, objective objectives and key results. Right. So you say, okay, it's about results as impact Now, if your results and impact are not visible, if they're not clear, if they're not documented, if they're not evangelized, if they're not shared, then how can it really how can it be a measurable result?

00;03;35;25 - 00;03;50;20
How can it be a major impact? Right. And so I think this is sometimes the kind of art and science of sometimes, you know, having great careers and great performance is thinking about not just about what you do, but also how you share it.

00;03;52;04 - 00;04;18;22
It's good Segway. So how you share it. So it's it's it is, of course, what you're doing. It is, of course, why you're doing it. But if you're not letting people know whether they're on the team or not, depends on the relationship, which we talked about, how you're connecting with others on the relevance So if you're working with a virtual team, things that we already know is the best practices, you're going to work with the team and communicate effectively to be able to give the team updates.

00;04;18;29 - 00;04;44;24
Here's what I'm doing Maybe we're talking a little bit about that. Maybe we're more focused on, again, the the way that you're perceived in others and providing the value. And so you can not necessarily get the credit for credit sake, but be acknowledged for the work that you're putting in that's contributing to these factors that eventually lead to some of the things that we're talking about, contributing to those OKRs, contributing to the goals, contributing to the team.

00;04;45;12 - 00;05;02;00
But then when it comes to performance, it comes to performance management It comes to recognition for that performance and in compensatory reasons or promotion periods and things like that, it's, it's, it's all working together so as necessary.

00;05;02;21 - 00;05;22;09
I agree. 100%. And I think sometimes I get stuck with a basic, you know, and best practice is that everything you do should be documented. Right. So I think it's like, let's go back to our military days, right? Everything you perform, right? You you have checklists, you have tasks, you have missions, right? And everything. There is a result and it's documented.

00;05;22;18 - 00;05;42;26
It's not just kind of, you know, past my mouth, right. Or, you know, kind of tribal songs and things like that. You documented it is documented for a reason, a so that people can actually learn from it, you know, be you can measure and evaluate the results and see how people can be recognized, rewarded, you know, acknowledged for great work.

00;05;43;06 - 00;05;50;13
And sometimes it's not just about what others do. It's about how you initiate it. Right. And it becomes part of your practice.

00;05;51;29 - 00;06;17;12
Right. I think that's a that's another key point here. And as basic basic fundamentals I guess, is the way to kind of illustrate the key components, how do you initiate it? One, probably goes down and do a conversation of this is the beginning of a fiscal year, the beginning of a project or beginning of an idea. Hey, I'm thinking about doing this.

00;06;18;06 - 00;06;37;15
What are your thoughts? And you're pulling people in and now you're beginning to pass the ideas back and forth. You're sharing some pads that can be taken for these types of things, and then you're trying to find and identify, well how many resources are going to be necessary for these types of things, how much work is involved, what are the costs?

00;06;38;03 - 00;07;09;28
What are some of the restrictions and some of the elements that or the the variables that we need to consider before we get into that? Because that also is a way that you're being able to express the depth of your thoughts or your skills and your ability to know how to bring in others to help accomplish the goals, which is a factor like today in today's world where there's a lot of hybrid activities in these certain careers, where many years ago it was very niche, very specific.

00;07;09;28 - 00;07;31;19
Now, you know, the workforce is looking for people that have a diverse skill set that contributes in a much broader way for the team or the organization. So initiating how you initiate is part of that disability. It's saying, Well, this person seems to have a good, deeper understanding of our business needs in our business. Let's talk more.

00;07;32;21 - 00;07;51;21
I think, Chris, you bring up a great point is and maybe sometimes the soft skills, right, to a degree. So I think is that, you know, certainly a high tech sector we see this is you can have great technical skills, but you also need to have a soft skills, things like in a communication presentation. But this is things that fall into visibility, right?

00;07;52;01 - 00;08;09;12
You may be the best developer in the world. You may be the best lessee. Machinist, right. You may be the best engineer. Yet, if you don't know how to communicate to these things, you don't know how to share these things. Right. Those are the soft skills. And this is what holds back a lot of people sometimes in their careers, right?

00;08;09;13 - 00;08;30;05
In their performance, you know, in their recognition of the results. You know, those things and this is something that we really want to, you know, courage to think about you. Now, some ways, I think that, you know, I know we have, you know, probably thousands of non veteran military listeners to our podcast. Some people like are David, I don't I don't want to follow your military methods.

00;08;30;05 - 00;08;52;15
We don't have that in our company. But I say, well, where do you start? So sometimes you start with very simple things. Going back to a topic that we've mentioned a few times here, and our podcast is networking, right? You know, never eat lunch alone. Never have coffee alone, right? Yes. Sometimes build your network and show their network on the results if they're not secret and proprietary, you know, you know, to your company.

00;08;52;15 - 00;09;07;12
But like in your network inside your company and broader issue chair, look what we did. You know, look at the results here. Look at this. And the impact right in sharing it. And eventually you can start to build and grow that network and natural recognition and visibility can come from that.

00;09;09;01 - 00;09;34;06
That's a good point. It it it just goes to show how important networking is through the networking. It builds the connections to be able to establish yourself and your maybe your reputation or your skill set precedes you. But everybody understands better about what you're able to offer. And now I mean, I think this is the we're talking about the very beginning phases of visibility is to say, do people want you working with them?

00;09;34;28 - 00;09;56;12
How are you presenting yourself? And some of those things you just thought you just talked about, right? You introduced how you communicate everything begins with communicating, whether it's the written verbal doesn't matter. There's all of these indicators. You're saying, well, this person is giving me the impression that they know what they're doing. They know how to do it.

00;09;56;27 - 00;10;15;09
And that in itself, the work that you're doing is a form of communication, if you will, because now it's going to be word of mouth. And so I think that reputation that's built off of successful accomplishments to include some failures, I mean, we we know that we want to fail because that's the test I'm saying. Is it going to work or not?

00;10;15;21 - 00;10;43;15
We just need to understand how to fail. You know, I think the one thing that we understand most and you just talked about it was civilians or military veteran affiliated communities matters less. The whole idea is, well, when I have these skills, how do I communicate my skills to make them relevant to the topic or to the others that are looking for these type of skills to be included in that team dynamic or in that team discussion is is somebody that we want to be a part of the team.

00;10;44;07 - 00;10;53;28
So I'll park it here. But the transferable skills, how do I communicate what I've done in order to have the proper visibility of what I'm capable of doing and how I'm going to contribute?

00;10;55;08 - 00;11;25;18
Yeah, Chris, to build on a little bit, thinking about it's you know, I'm a big fan of Crawl, Walk, Run, right? You know, and starting things. I feel like, well, this doesn't, you know, culture does not exist in my company. We do. No one else does this well, sometimes I would say lead by example, right? Many companies, whether using Slack or Microsoft teams or KUDO boards and things like that, even though it's not necessarily given yourself kudos, it's maybe in giving others kudos lead by example, start in building that culture.

00;11;25;18 - 00;11;47;19
Right. And you know, many other people saying that, wow, I saw, you know, Jane, Doe doing some great work. I want to recognize and call it out in encouraging others over time. Right. How becomes part of your team and company culture and then it gets easier, easier for people to be visible, easier for them to kind of share in a results, easier for people to be recognized for that.

00;11;47;19 - 00;11;52;07
So I think that's one thing that we always ask and recommend people lead by example.

00;11;54;15 - 00;12;23;06
No, that's that's a great example and that's a great example of how to be seen without putting the spotlight on you. And sharing credit, advocating for others my personal opinion is the proper way. I think at some point we all need to understand that everybody sees what's happening. I don't think there's a lot of people that are fooled or tricked into thinking that somebody else is doing the work.

00;12;23;27 - 00;12;50;25
And the one that actually did it isn't going to get the credit. I think everybody over time is going to be able to see that the ones that did the work are the ones that are probably the most quiet in a humble way. Right? Not necessarily literally quiet, but it's just a matter of understanding that they're you know, they're silently acknowledging that they contributed, but they're more focused on giving the accolades to the team.

00;12;51;08 - 00;13;18;04
That way, everybody else is getting seen as being able to deliver and so I think that there's another part of the visibility component you have to really understand. You know, there's there's self advocating and then there's self when you how would you say it? Self gratifying, maybe, you know, where there's going to be a time and a place where you're going to have to explain your accomplishments in that setting.

00;13;18;04 - 00;13;32;07
It's because somebody is literally assessing whether or not you're going to be able to meet the expectations before they bring you in to start something with them that's not the same as what we're talking about. It's this is becoming now your footprint.

00;13;33;18 - 00;13;50;24
Yeah. Chris, building up on that right is I think there's always way to start things very easy and early, you know, whether regardless of your role, like with your manager, you know, very simple. I've learned this maybe you know, 15, 20 years ago, right? Is like every week you know is that your manager manager may not want it or not.

00;13;50;24 - 00;14;13;01
Right. You say, hey you write three to five bullets, hey, this is what I got done this week. This is what I'm going to do this week. And whether you're managing replies to it cares about it every single week you say, here's what I got done this week. And over time you'd be surprised everyone that of how addicts give that mail, that sort of accomplishments well will become to your manager and sometimes your skip levels and others.

00;14;13;07 - 00;14;34;04
Right. And then you can build upon that. Right? And I can't recommend this even more, you know, to to anyone. It's amazing is that once you build a rhythm, you know, a music beat, if you will, are drum beat, right? People will very quickly become addicted to it, start marching to it, no pun intended. And I can say also building upon a little bit is I've been writing for many people that know me.

00;14;34;04 - 00;14;52;03
I write what's called the weekly dossier you know, the status mail newsletter. No, because people delete those. But I read the dossier, whether anyone reads it or not, I write it. Every company I've been at. Right. And eventually people start to follow and they want to know what's going on, you know, what they accomplish, what the results, what they said, just go read the dossier.

00;14;52;13 - 00;15;02;29
But people amazingly will start marching to your music and your drumbeat when you start it. It won't happen overnight. It won't happen in one week to week, three weeks. It may not happen for a couple of months.

00;15;03;12 - 00;15;13;19
And that is actually an interesting dynamic so it's a matter of understanding. Well, why why would you do that one? I'm assuming you do that because you love to do it, right?

00;15;14;00 - 00;15;32;21
I do it not so much at first. What, Nick? Actually, I'll be open and honest if I go back many years ago, people. What in the world are you doing, David? What are you getting done? What are your team doing right And so I initially I did to solve a problem, right? But over time, you know, I've managed large organizations.

00;15;32;21 - 00;15;50;25
It's about what is your team doing? And so those of us in a cybersecurity, people know that security is always a black box. Right. And no one knows what in the world you guys are doing. Why we're paying you so much. Why do you have so many people? Well, we start doing some things and making it open. People get to you know, are quite thankful for it.

00;15;50;25 - 00;16;14;02
And they recognized, well, why do we have this team So I think it evolved for me over time. But I realized that just like especially, you know, the other point of distributing organizations around the world, hybrid organizations, you know, people working remotely, you've got to overcommunicate. Otherwise, there is no visibility if we're not in the same office. Chris, how in the world do I know what in the world you're doing?

00;16;14;29 - 00;16;50;16
Yep. And that's that's where it intersects because, you know, to do to do something for a personal preference because it's love it it's what you love to do. And then when it becomes sort of depended on, I guess you can say dependent upon now people expected yeah. I guess the challenge would be now it becomes more laborious and there's a temptation now to to have an expectation to where some people if it's not sincerely or organically something they want to do, that consistency begins to fade because now it's an expectation.

00;16;51;08 - 00;17;00;28
But in your experience, David, when you when you when you do that, what do you think is the number one driver for you to continue to write your dossier?

00;17;02;07 - 00;17;20;18
Well, from myself is the fact that more and more people sign up to read it and receive it every week or so. That's an insight in itself. But I'll give you going back to another element, as you mentioned, about, you know, careers, performance, you know, performance review cycles. I go, oh, what in the world did I do this year?

00;17;21;07 - 00;17;40;14
Should I be exceeded should be outstanding, right? Or whatever. What do I write down? Well, you know, if you had a nice little record of a weekly mail that you wrote every week or a couple of bullets every single week of all your accomplishments for the year, it gets really, really easy to write your performance review for the year because you've already documented everything.

00;17;40;18 - 00;17;43;20
Now just cut and paste. Believe it or not, it can be that simple.

00;17;44;20 - 00;18;18;24
Got it. And that's that's what I was going for because it's there's a duality in it. You're it's self-serving, but it's not self centered, right? You're doing it because it's going to provide value down the line and noting, documenting or updating, you know, in whatever form, whether it's writing it in a notebook and then eventually transposing it into digital format or if you're taking notes digitally, all of those things carry into that as an opportunity for us to understand maybe what you're thinking, you know, anybody out there wondering, well, I want to do it, but what's the point?

00;18;18;25 - 00;18;40;09
Well, the point should begin with you. You're doing it for you. And the whole point is it matters less what other people think. The second is, if you're going to do that and then you're going to share it with others, Then what we talked about is you have to be effective with it and then tailor it to the needs of the audience where it provides a perceived value and that value.

00;18;40;10 - 00;19;09;24
David gave a good example in his area of the industry. It's very specific. Security is no joking matter. So you have to make sure that you're still abiding by the facts or the the common issues that will help others understand it while you're doing it for you. And make it relevant. Even though, you know, like David was saying, there's things that sometimes people will read or won't read, but it's there if they need it.

00;19;10;03 - 00;19;27;22
I think that's the key especially when you're putting in the effort and you're working with others. And there is going to be a need at some point to understand what's going on, to be truthful we don't need to know what's going on 100% of the time, but 100% of the time we need to know what's going on, if that makes sense.

00;19;27;22 - 00;19;31;02
We just have to pick our times. And when we're looking for those updates.

00;19;32;07 - 00;19;58;23
You're spot on. Chris, I'd like to bring up another point on, you know, sometimes being visible, you know, kind of documenting things, sharing it is some some people actually may fear this, but it's actually one of the most important things is if you're not visible and you're not sharing it and being public about it, then you often can miss what you may be doing wrong or that you may be working on the wrong things or you may be focused on the wrong priorities.

00;19;59;10 - 00;20;18;28
And when you're overly visible about things, it's really easy to get feedback in people. We will not say, no pun intended, they'll attack it. Right. Those are things you want to know about can you imagine? We've seen people throughout their careers is that, hey, they're working on something for three or six months and then time comes to review cycle or other things.

00;20;19;15 - 00;20;37;20
Chris, why in the world are you working on that? No one wants that. And it's well, well, why don't you tell me? I had no idea that's what you're doing, wasting your time on that. And those are so important, right? It's just like mistakes. You want to be open about it, you want to learn from it, but you want people that are very quickly saying you're focusing on the wrong things.

00;20;37;27 - 00;20;48;13
These are the wrong priorities. Why is your attention not you know, when you're focused on X, you want that invite in by being visible at this, it can be a major asset to you.

00;20;49;09 - 00;21;23;26
That's it. So I couldn't help myself there habits, right? If you're the habits of what you do and that's what people see in that consistency, then it becomes more transparent. It becomes easier for others to understand what what's missing. And so if they if they see that there's constant if there's information that's constantly being put out there, that's giving the opportunity to assess the activity in any relationship.

00;21;23;26 - 00;21;53;15
I don't care if it's family or professional or in matters less. I mean, I don't know how many types of other relationships there would be, but it has it depends on the ability to to to communicate effectively if the visibility is going to be key and how you're going to be viewed, then I think from your example where I couldn't help, it is be the habit that means do it consistently, do it sincerely, and then you'll be seen, right?

00;21;53;16 - 00;22;08;10
This is visibility. You'll be seen as somebody that has the discipline to continue and the willingness to receive input because you're putting the information out there, it appears that you'd be willing to receive information that can help everybody be better.

00;22;09;22 - 00;22;29;13
Absolutely. You know, I think is like I know Chris, you're probably, you know, followers on a number of people on TikTok and Instagram reels and things like that. Right. Well, you're following the people who are pretty consistent with their content, right? You don't you're not the, you know, following people. They're just one, you know, video hits, right? You're following the people are consistent and things you like and you're continue to follow them at the same time.

00;22;29;13 - 00;22;36;08
Those people know when they go off kilter, right? They're going to know very, very quickly and get that feedback. And this is what it's all about.

00;22;37;17 - 00;23;08;29
The personal algorithms, I guess, is the way to say that. It's with that consistency, people know what to expect and I think that's key, right? It becomes a dependency that because of what you're able to provide and you're demonstrating the consistency that allows people to know who to go to. Right. So ultimately, I think we've lost a number of steps here to key in on because we're we're doing a couple of trajectories on the side, what we can do and how we can do it.

00;23;09;23 - 00;23;41;24
But how you're seeing through that dependency that that consistency allows people to when an opportunity comes up, they're going to think of you. And I think that's what we're talking about here is mostly as you're making we call it networking call making connections, you can be socializing. It matters less. The point is when you're connecting with other people, regardless of the reason, hopefully it's sincere and it's less self-serve thing in the sense of it's always in it for you, more so it's in it for you so you can help the team, which is different.

00;23;42;25 - 00;24;07;09
I think the thing that the consider is as you're going through, people understand who their go to is. If it's in a particular area you've developed over the years, that you've become a very specific you know, subject matter expert in these critical areas you'll be thought of. And so if you're project based in a project comes up because not all the projects are the same, but when one does and they think of you, that's the point.

00;24;07;09 - 00;24;37;03
And the way they think of you is through that consistency of being able to be an effective communicator, it's tailoring your information to somebody or anybody. So they have an ability to piece things together over time because it's not the one hit wonder that we're after. It's over time they're able to see these little nuggets and then piece together a little puzzle that says That's the puzzle of somebody that has these skills, these attributes, these elements that I want to be I want to include as a part of the team to help me accomplish what I need to do.

00;24;37;04 - 00;24;55;24
Now, Chris, I'd like to take it to the next level, right? I think about the consistency of the visibility. And, you know, I think from an element of leadership is when you have the visibility, you have the consistency, you have that audience, right? Then you have the opportunity to drive an agenda, to drive a direction, to drive a strategy, right?

00;24;56;00 - 00;25;17;00
Because now you have a natural followers. You have natural listeners. Right. And very carefully. Right. I'm not saying that from a malicious perspective, but like people like you can actually start driving an agenda in a direction and a strategy now because of that, that voice. And so it's just like, you know, singers or music music, you can slightly kind of take things in a slightly different direction.

00;25;17;08 - 00;25;30;11
You can send a message, right? You can push in certain topics, right? And it's amazingly how powerful that can be when you build that visible, consistent, you know, kind of audience and message.

00;25;32;16 - 00;26;11;12
You hear that that was the can you just opened on driving change. So as we sit here and we talk about things through observation that we experience and we want to now influence a different way of doing things, being driving change, change management or anything to influence different outcomes because you've presented yourself in a way where people trust it, they find you to be a dependable contributor, selfless in the sense of wanting to serve the greater good or the greater team, the organizational goals, having a right construct and value systems, they start to trust you if you're able to.

00;26;11;12 - 00;26;43;25
Now, put together the information and have it point towards something that will help deliver even better results through ideas, sharing now you have a seat at the table. You're right. I think this is one of those things that, you know, you're able to truly understand the depth of its power. As you mentioned, and then leverage that not to exploit it, but you want to actually leverage it to be able to help others rally around your ability to see things differently and then now contribute in in bigger ways.

00;26;44;11 - 00;27;05;08
Absolutely. You know, another element of this I maybe should have mentioned earlier is that let's think about some of the great leaders right? You know, in our work thinking about in life and thinking about in the military. Right. And so I know your favorite historical general in the Army was, you know, patent right. Is that do people love leaders that are just completely opaque?

00;27;05;14 - 00;27;24;08
You have no idea how they make decisions. They have no idea what their principles are. You have no idea on what their agenda is. It's pretty hard to do. But when they're very when they're very open, transparent and clear, right on where they're going, what the goals are, how we're going to do things right. People, it's so much easier to follow is so much more motivating and it's so much more productive.

00;27;24;08 - 00;27;29;10
Right. And that's what because they're visible, they're visible, open and they're transparent.

00;27;30;05 - 00;27;57;11
You know, and relevant. And then there's more we can add on to that. But if you're all of those things and in my mind could be a timing thing, but either way, maybe you don't get looked at the same. So let's briefly cover that. So immediate gratification now that we have these these contributing factors, you know, I'm I'm understanding my dynamic, my my environmental dynamic, right where I am, either in the workplace or in the community, it matters less.

00;27;58;13 - 00;28;23;10
I'm learning how to present myself. We talked about personal branding. That's a form of communication. I'm presenting myself to be a valued member of society, of the team, of the organization. I'm communicating effectively. I'm identifying what the leaders within that community needs to see in order to have what they need to be successful in driving mission and moving things forward.

00;28;24;09 - 00;28;46;00
I'm getting better at that. I'm practicing and I'm more consistent now. I want something in return. What are your thoughts on. Well, David, I want it tomorrow. I want it today. If I'm doing all of these things you told me last week and I'm doing it right, I want to get what I'm deserving today. My thoughts on that.

00;28;46;18 - 00;29;06;17
Yeah, great question. And I always like the answer. Back with the question. Right. So it's just kind of going back to a manager, right? He was saying your manager, your script level, your organization saying that instead of seeing a statement like I'm having this amazing impact on the organization or on customers, I always ask the question, is this the most important thing to our customers?

00;29;06;25 - 00;29;28;07
Is this the most impactful project in our entire organization? You know, question mark at the end about? And then basically because you've asked the question, there has to be an answer or someone will drive an answer. No, David, that is, you are worthless. No, David, you're not working on the right things. No, David, you know that's the wrong priorities or it is it is amazing.

00;29;28;07 - 00;29;50;03
Right? So it's getting a little of that visibility and validation. Right. You know, on that. And sometimes but you never assume like, you know, Seinfeld never assume. We'll leave it at that. But the element is you want to validate and sometimes you validate not my making statements by asking questions. And they will devise some answers. And then you can realize, oh, I am working on something important.

00;29;50;03 - 00;30;01;12
I'm going to keep focused on this or no, maybe I'm working on the wrong things and taking the wrong approach. And that's just as important as, you know, driving. You need to get the communication feedback.

00;30;02;05 - 00;30;24;21
To great Segways and can't say that they're closely aligned to the visibility compartment, but I guess maybe they could be. We'll make it that way. Why? Because you and I are driving the narrative in this conversation, so validation the point of that is to make sure that you're on track. We're confirming, you know, hey, here's what I'm seeing of what you're delivering.

00;30;25;04 - 00;30;50;15
I'm observing or you're intentionally providing me this information in my best in the best of my ability, in my position are my view how I play a role in this particular relationship. Here's what I'm saying needs to happen. Great job here. Needs a little bit of work there or something. Else. And then the second thing you say, well, questions, it's more discovery.

00;30;50;24 - 00;31;14;28
Great. Thanks for giving me that information. Here's my question or here are my questions. I think this is probably a separate podcast in itself. How to ask the right question. But if you think about that dialog that's occurring after that, now you're beginning to understand how the relationship element is supposed to work through the visibility characteristic or that action.

00;31;15;13 - 00;31;38;02
You're providing information, you're providing visibility to others on what you're doing, and it's either delivered in the actions or the written form or through word of mouth. At some point, there's follow ups that need to occur because that's going to now get into the depth of what's really needing to happen for it to continue to move forward. Otherwise it becomes stagnant.

00;31;38;02 - 00;31;45;15
Like most things untouched, it becomes stagnant and then it loses its relevancy. Why? Because it's out of the time of when it was relevant.

00;31;45;26 - 00;32;05;18
Yep. I think we always have to ask the hard questions, and I am excited to, you know, that Will, you know, that's probably our next podcast, right? But you know, they validation is that is this having is this having the same expected results between what I think and you think or the team thinks, right? And in asking people that and be open about that and being ready for that feedback.

00;32;05;18 - 00;32;27;07
Right. And I think that is really helps you to know by being visible, helps you to know are you prioritizing properly, are you investing the right way in a way, those type of things. And I think many people don't understand that that's sometimes the most important task they can in being visible is asking questions.

00;32;28;16 - 00;33;02;02
Yeah, I think I think, you know, and maybe in closing here we're going to want to down with some of these these thoughts if you're not driving your visibility for yourself, of course, learning how to do it effectively like we talked about somebody else to do it for you. Right. That's the thing. If you're if you're sincerely and organically putting in the right work the right way, understanding that we aren't perfect and we make mistakes and we fail and you know, some decisions because they're uninformed or for whatever reason, too risky and doesn't land where we wanted it to.

00;33;02;02 - 00;33;29;10
And, you know, we have to pull back and reassess. If you're not going to advocate for yourself to start with, then you have to invest an enormous amount of trust into somebody who will. But then you become dependent on somebody's ability or willingness to be able to do that. And when it doesn't align with the timelines, don't complain because the factor is, is you're not doing enough on your own to be able to push out what people need to see from you so they can see you.

00;33;29;29 - 00;33;50;21
Increase their spot on. And it comes back to the word, I think, not just visibility, but execution. Right. And, you know, it will lead me to, you know, this podcast, you know, book recommendation. Right. You know, to have solid execution. Right. You need a visibility. Right. And execution is really the discipline of getting things done. So, you know, book by, you know, Larry Cassidy and Ram Sharon.

00;33;50;21 - 00;34;11;17
Right. Is that how can you execute on a strategy? How can it execute and mission if you're not visible and don't communicate? It's a spot. That's exactly what's going on here. Right. And so I think that's part of our our mission as part of our responsibility is to be visible. Right. And it's also our opportunity to lead. Right.

00;34;11;17 - 00;34;13;25
By being visible and encouraging others to do the same.

00;34;14;14 - 00;34;41;13
Right. Yeah. And we can unpack that all day. The type of leadership, the styles of leadership the the the type of leadership, informal, formal, everybody is at some point influencing something. So that can be, by a loose definition, a leader right, wrong or indifferent. It's a fact. You just want to you want to be more you want to be geared more towards the right way to do it than just being reckless in how you're making decisions and including people.

00;34;41;13 - 00;35;04;02
Because just because you want it to be something different than the sincerity, right? The role is you're well, we just talked about your influencing others in a way that has them making decision. So if you're doing it the wrong way, it is the wrong way because you're not doing it for the right reasons. And I know I'm being cryptic in that, but not so much.

00;35;04;02 - 00;35;17;03
I think everybody will understand the context of it is you got to put effort into doing things that carry high moral ground and value systems. So it's bringing people together then then eventually leading people apart.

00;35;18;08 - 00;35;34;06
You know, Chris, I think that's a great summary. At the same time, I think people are going to have lots of questions, you know, on, on this area. And I think that's probably should be our next podcast is really what type of questions to ask and how to ask great questions. And I look forward to meeting up and discussing that next.

00;35;34;22 - 00;35;52;15
Likewise. Yeah. It's great to get on these and do these seemingly quick hits, but this wasn't so quick. I mean, we actually we did ramble for quite some time here and I think it was good. I think we got hopefully covered the ground we wanted to. So, David, it's always a pleasure to have you here talking about these things.

00;35;53;11 - 00;35;59;11
Yeah, thanks, Chris. And I really enjoy, you know, getting the feedback from the community as there as our listener base grows.

00;36;00;04 - 00;36;03;25
Yeah. So give us feedback. All righty. One, keep moving forward.